Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

Correcting your boss

Back-story summed up briefly: Spent a few years as a comm sobeitunion06/26/17
Are they attorneys? Are you inhouse counsel/acting as an att retard06/26/17
They are attorneys (in house counsel). I am acting in a role sobeitunion06/26/17
Does that mean contract manager or real estate analyst or do retard06/26/17
Heard and thanks for the advice. My title is abnormal a sobeitunion06/26/17
If you can scan to PDF with the office copier, scan their ma qdllc06/26/17
Next time something comes up, I'd ask for 5 minutes to discu dingbat06/26/17
Credited. I'd tread lightly on the email, but I agree with sjlawyer06/26/17
Find the authority / best practices manual / guideline, etc. anothernjlawyer06/26/17
Thanks for the advice. Dealing with these NYC corporate type sobeitunion06/26/17
NYC corporate types? why didn't you say so. Just tell them dingbat06/26/17
If the NYC corporate types actually lived by what they preac triplesix06/26/17
It's not your job to save people from their bad decisions . riskmanager06/26/17
It would be nice if your document preparation software would jeffm06/26/17
looks like the overall message in this thread is "CYA" dingbat06/27/17
You sound like an idealist. And in an ideal world, subordina mrtor06/27/17
My idealism died years ago, trust me. I don't think idealist sobeitunion06/27/17
I've had redline corrections come back from the other party' dingbat06/30/17
Document your suggestions to them and let them make their mi cheapbrass06/29/17
sobeitunion (Jun 26, 2017 - 4:50 pm)

Back-story summed up briefly:

Spent a few years as a commercial real estate transactional attorney. Got laid off some years ago and did other things for awhile. Recently got hired into a large corporation negotiating and drafting real estate documents.

It is readily apparent that I know more than both of my bosses and they are making sometimes small and sometimes critical errors on documents. I am required to submit my documents to them for review and then they make these errors on my documents too, or at the very least, strongly suggest that I do as well.

Attempts to correct/educate them have been unproductive. They tend to get defensive. It's not a pride thing, they just don't have much experience and I have a bit more.

I just hate putting out bad work and don't want to risk getting caught not following directions (again).

How would you handle it?

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retard (Jun 26, 2017 - 6:59 pm)

Are they attorneys? Are you inhouse counsel/acting as an attorney?

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sobeitunion (Jun 26, 2017 - 8:12 pm)

They are attorneys (in house counsel). I am acting in a role that doesn't necessitate an active law license. The work is exactly what I did as an attorney before though.

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retard (Jun 26, 2017 - 8:17 pm)

Does that mean contract manager or real estate analyst or does it mean para or some other support staff?

Either way if you are not counsel then document and let it ride.

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sobeitunion (Jun 26, 2017 - 8:29 pm)

Heard and thanks for the advice.

My title is abnormal and might give away where I work so I'd rather not put it out there (never know who's poasting). My duties are to draft and negotiate commercial real estate documents is the best I can say. I guess it's a hybrid contracts manager/paralegal type position.

I do have a law license which makes me hesitant to put something out against the company's best interest since the bar doesn't care about my title but rather the nature of my work. And the nature of my work is very much the same as that of an associate attorney. If these weren't blatant mistakes I would care less. But it's really rudimentary, fundamental contract law and drafting that they don't seem to understand. Like what a defined term is and how they are used (or aren't used), or... it's hard to even explain because it's the simplest sh!t.

Fack it. I hated law firm life and was hoping inhouse-style would be better. Lawyers are mostly douches no matter where you work I guess. At least it's only 45 hours a week.

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qdllc (Jun 26, 2017 - 4:57 pm)

If you can scan to PDF with the office copier, scan their mark ups and save them. Submit as they desire. CYA.

In my job, I can fix only so much stupid before my "give-a-damn" meter breaks.

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dingbat (Jun 26, 2017 - 4:58 pm)

Next time something comes up, I'd ask for 5 minutes to discuss. Sit down with them and say you have a question/concern. Point out the issue and explain what the ramifications are, and ask them to make a decision.

Basically, you come in as their subordinate, and treat them with the deference they expect. You're merely asking - do you want that contingency, or should we waive it?
And if they give you an answer contrary to what you think is the right answer, politely ask them to explain - just say you're new to the company, in the past most people have done it the other way, so could you please explain why we do things differently?

Treat it as if it's a learning experience for you, not a lecturing to them. And if they tell you to do it differently, make sure you confirm their instructions in an email.

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sjlawyer (Jun 26, 2017 - 5:10 pm)

Credited. I'd tread lightly on the email, but I agree with the sentiment.

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anothernjlawyer (Jun 26, 2017 - 4:59 pm)

Find the authority / best practices manual / guideline, etc., that supports your position, and show it to them when you raise your concern.

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sobeitunion (Jun 26, 2017 - 5:02 pm)

Thanks for the advice. Dealing with these NYC corporate types is tough. Gonna sit on the latest one overnight.

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dingbat (Jun 26, 2017 - 5:20 pm)

NYC corporate types? why didn't you say so. Just tell them why they'll get fired if it goes south and that they need to sign off or you won't do it.

None of those f*ckers want to stick their own neck out, so if you make them put their ass on the line they'll back down in a heartbeat

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triplesix (Jun 26, 2017 - 5:39 pm)

If the NYC corporate types actually lived by what they preached, this would credited. But in reality this will screw OP over.

The advice above is credited, beat them at their own lame ass white people game. Document and forget, this is not your problem. Let people who get paid figure it out and don't look like that know it all guy, nobody likes him even if he is right

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riskmanager (Jun 26, 2017 - 10:38 pm)

It's not your job to save people from their bad decisions . Your only goal should be to preserve your job. That means document your advice and move on. The only exception is when they ask you to do something illegal. It is also not your job to save the company money. If the company were worried about the " right " answer, these attorneys would not be there. If they were low education or low paid , I might say different. As it is , they are not worth the effort.

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jeffm (Jun 26, 2017 - 11:45 pm)

It would be nice if your document preparation software would allow revisions and comments like MS Word's commenting feature. That way, you can collaborate, and all the comments would become part of the document. Then, you could keep your own copy with all the comments in case something comes up.

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dingbat (Jun 27, 2017 - 8:42 am)

looks like the overall message in this thread is "CYA"

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mrtor (Jun 27, 2017 - 10:42 am)

You sound like an idealist. And in an ideal world, subordinate employees could legitimately correct their superiors when issues or errors arise.

This, however, is the real world. They are the practicing attorneys, not you. There is also a real possibility that your interpretation or understanding of the issues is incorrect. You have attempted and been rebuffed in your efforts to remedy the perceived issues. You can either do the job you are instructed to do or find new employment.

Just because we believe we have found wrongs doesn't mean we are entitled to make the changes we see fit. Especially not as a front line worker.

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sobeitunion (Jun 27, 2017 - 3:37 pm)

My idealism died years ago, trust me. I don't think idealists stay on this board for too long lol. I'm just trying to put food on the table. I am perhaps slightly less defeated than you mrtor, but by all means pragmatic. I'm new at this job. I don't want their boss seeing crap work coming up with my name on it. CYA is the whole point of asking for advice.

Not that it matters, but there is zero possibility that my understanding is incorrect. Zero. These are basic contract law and drafting principles (defined terms - their usage and effect, recitals, removing sentences that have the unintended effect of rendering multiple sections meaningless, etc.). A large chunk of laypersons would understand which makes it so hard to explain to a "superior" without damaging their ego.

Gung-ho, well-connected, fresh grads that are making silly mistakes.

I did discuss things this morning in conformity with the credited response to this thread. My primary boss was able to swallow about half of her mistakes once we turned it into a "teach sobeitunion" type chat. Couldn't really explain her position on any of it, but seemed to want to argue anyways on the other half. I backed down, said let me rework the section, changed absolutely none of my original work except for the names of the defined terms I was using (which is changing nothing at all) and the ordering of some isolated provisions to make it look like I made more revisions than I had. Got my stuff approved a couple hours later.

Sometimes you just need to make them feel like they're right/it was their idea in the first place is what I've learned from this exercise in futility.

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dingbat (Jun 30, 2017 - 9:35 am)

I've had redline corrections come back from the other party's attorney that clearly fell under the category of justifying fees. No substantial changes, just silly word changes that make no discernible difference.

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cheapbrass (Jun 29, 2017 - 5:11 pm)

Document your suggestions to them and let them make their mistakes. When shiit blows up, watch them get fired, then slide into their position. promotion earned.

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