Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

Would you recommend law school for relative with no options?

A relative of mine went to med school, struck out, is saddle aspiringlawyer06/28/17
Struck out how? Didn't finish med school? Didn't match? Didn therewillbeblood06/28/17
I absolutely would not recommend law school to anyone. It's lawst07/04/17
Maybe if he could go totally for free and keep living with m inho2solo06/28/17
He didn't match. A JD is required, of course. It would be be aspiringlawyer06/28/17
Why not wait a year and apply again, family medicine program wolfman06/28/17
Or how about applying to a physician assistant (PA) program? lazlo06/28/17
It was my idea. The person can't take out any more loans, so aspiringlawyer06/28/17
Only if I hated him. isthisit06/28/17
Join military, go officer. Way more earning potential and ca tom_foolery06/28/17
If I could do it over again this would be the track I would kramer71606/28/17
someone who actually went to medical school has options. He dingbat06/28/17
"someone who actually went to medical school has options. He vohod06/28/17
That does sound like the credited option though sobeitunion06/28/17
More loans? No. massivemissive06/28/17
This person has been out of medical school for a few years n aspiringlawyer06/28/17
Ok, that changes things somewhat, but there are some things wolfman06/28/17
The person does not have serious mental problems. The person aspiringlawyer06/28/17
OP you said you could help him get a job where you work. The lazlo06/28/17
army will accept up to age 42 dingbat06/28/17
No to law school. I'd direct him to circle back to the scho jd4hire06/28/17
The person obtained a Master's degree while applying to medi aspiringlawyer06/28/17
Just find another country with flexible doctor licensing law therewillbeblood06/28/17
No, do not go to law school. Your relative will have even m patenttrollnj06/28/17
lab tech may be a possibility (it pays crap however), but th wolfman06/28/17
Good point! I didn't realize how protective the PAs are, bu patenttrollnj06/28/17
Something ain't right here. I thought almost every med schoo cranky06/28/17
Cranky, of course something isn't right, but... virtually ev wolfman06/28/17
Think about it like failing the bar but never being able to aspiringlawyer06/28/17
Ok, others have pointed this out, but something isn't right toooldtocare06/28/17
Something is missing here-why is he "never able to take it a toooldtocare06/28/17
He took the test the maximum number of times and failed. Yo aspiringlawyer06/28/17
Do you know which USMLE step he failed? I'm assuming Step 2? wolfman06/29/17
I think it was Step 3, but I'm not sure. I don't ask questi aspiringlawyer06/29/17
No. There isn't much more to this statement. A JD as a "la sjlawyer06/28/17
All a JD is going to do is cost him three years when he coul anothernjlawyer06/28/17
He should move overseas, preferably a place like the Middle bizzybone131306/28/17
When a lawyer isn't happy with his life in the US, he should bizzybone131306/28/17
I have never understood why Americans think they can just pi onehell06/28/17
He better figure something out. He will never be able to pay bizzybone131306/28/17
If he's single, I'd go with #5. Find a foreign degree progra onehell06/28/17
Seriously, a rapper? aspiringlawyer06/28/17
That was an inside joke. I am aspiring rapper. I am going t bizzybone131306/29/17
If he's young and fit enough why not apply ti a pseudo milit secondcareerlawyer06/28/17
I knew of a person in this situation who did physicals for t ericcrapton06/28/17
Is there something in this person's background that prevents bigsal06/29/17
BigSal, it was easy to miss in the torrent of posts, but app wolfman06/29/17
No, clean record. He just failed the test. aspiringlawyer06/29/17
I would say step 3. You just need a MD to take it. Tha bigsal06/29/17
You are probably right. "Many schools condition graduati wolfman06/29/17
I did step 1 after second year Step 2 as a fourth year bigsal06/29/17

aspiringlawyer (Jun 28, 2017 - 11:11 am)

A relative of mine went to med school, struck out, is saddled with loans, and I'm thinking about giving him the law school option. His grades are obviously good, and there's the possibilty that he could get a scholarship. As of now, he works at a convenience store and lives with his parents. I feel like I can help him get a job where I work. He's under a lot of stress now. Before I present this idea to him, do you guys think this is a good idea?

Reply Like (0)
therewillbeblood (Jun 28, 2017 - 11:16 am)

Struck out how? Didn't finish med school? Didn't match? Didn't pass boards?

Reply Like (0)
lawst (Jul 4, 2017 - 12:53 pm)

I absolutely would not recommend law school to anyone. It's expensive, it's stressful, and it means no income for three years. All of this gets you a stressful job that frequently doesn't pay much. I regret my decision to go to law school almost every day.

Reply Like (0)
inho2solo (Jun 28, 2017 - 11:16 am)

Maybe if he could go totally for free and keep living with ma & pa. You mention getting him a job where you are, did you ever get that SSA advisor job?

Also, is a JD a prereq to helping him get such a job, wherever it may be?

Reply Like (0)
aspiringlawyer (Jun 28, 2017 - 11:33 am)

He didn't match. A JD is required, of course. It would be better than working at a convenience store.

Reply Like (0)
wolfman (Jun 28, 2017 - 11:38 am)

Why not wait a year and apply again, family medicine programs, community hospitals, etc? I would recommend almost anything else over a JD to someone who wanted to be a doctor...

Let me guess: did he go to a bottom-of-the-barrel Carribbean med school (meaning not St. George, Ross or Saba)? Did he have bad board scores? If the first one isn't true, and he is not Mike Swango, he'll match next year... if it's true, still not recommending a JD.

Reply Like (0)
lazlo (Jun 28, 2017 - 1:00 pm)

Or how about applying to a physician assistant (PA) program? He should explore all other healthcare alternatives.

I knew an MD who lost his license for improper pain meds Rx, who went back to law school. He's probably working in medmal as an internal expert, but this guy won't even be able to do that.

OP, please do him a favor and tell him to say no to a JD!

Reply Like (0)
aspiringlawyer (Jun 28, 2017 - 2:12 pm)

It was my idea. The person can't take out any more loans, so I thought law school would be an option if offered a scholarship.

Reply Like (0)
isthisit (Jun 28, 2017 - 11:43 am)

Only if I hated him.

Reply Like (1)
tom_foolery (Jun 28, 2017 - 11:53 am)

Join military, go officer. Way more earning potential and career opportunity, and maybe a chance to blow up some of the loans if he is willing to deploy. No brainer. If he likes medicine, he can even do a medical type MOS

Reply Like (0)
kramer716 (Jun 28, 2017 - 11:59 am)

If I could do it over again this would be the track I would take.

Having said that, if he can go to law school on 100% free ride, then knock yourself out. If he has to take out more loans, and he is already saddled with loans, then how is he better off? I don't understand how the med school thing works, but I have to think he can talk to someone at his old school and figure out alternatives.

Reply Like (0)
dingbat (Jun 28, 2017 - 12:29 pm)

someone who actually went to medical school has options. He can always go flip burgers at McDonalds. Do that for a while, become manager. Or find some small company that would love to have someone with his brains.

Someone with no options is either mentally or physically disabled, or is stupid and has a serious criminal record. Everything else, there are options.

Reply Like (0)
vohod (Jun 28, 2017 - 12:31 pm)

"someone who actually went to medical school has options. He can always go flip burgers at McDonalds."

Wew howdy. He also has the option to sit in his idling car in a closed garage listening to Townes Van Zandt. Doesn't mean its a credible option.

Reply Like (0)
sobeitunion (Jun 28, 2017 - 12:58 pm)

That does sound like the credited option though

Reply Like (0)
massivemissive (Jun 28, 2017 - 12:32 pm)

More loans? No.

Reply Like (0)
aspiringlawyer (Jun 28, 2017 - 12:38 pm)

This person has been out of medical school for a few years now, which is why I emphasized the point of him having no options. He didn't go to the Caribbean. He graduated but can't practice. Probably has like a half million dollars in loans by now that his parents co-signed on. They don't make much money at all! I thought of law school, because sometimes they give free scholarships. He's also too old to join the military, pushing 40. He spent most of his time in school trying to become a doctor.

Reply Like (0)
wolfman (Jun 28, 2017 - 12:49 pm)

Ok, that changes things somewhat, but there are some things you need to consider.

1) Obviously, a JD without bar admission is as useless, or even more useless, to him than an MD without residency, right? Or can you still get him a good job if he just has a JD but no licence (in that case, maybe you can tell me what job that is, so I can apply:-)?

2) You're saying this is a US MD/DO grad who was unable to get residency and can't get a state licence to practice. This, to me, suggests serious mental problems/addiction or serious criminality or both. Before you recommend LS to this person, even at full scholly, you better be ABSOLUTELY sure the same problems that stopped him from getting a residency won't stop him from being admitted to the bar. Otherwise, see my point #1.

3) The loans worry me, even if point #2 is addressed, especially loans of this size. Are they federal or private (federal loans typically do not need a cosigner)? How old? Eligible for IBR? On IBR? Is he in default? If he has or will default on his loans, he will likely not be admitted to the bar. This needs to be investigated in detail before he goes to LS. Trust me - not being able to get a law licence because of defaulted private loans is not fun...

Reply Like (1)
aspiringlawyer (Jun 28, 2017 - 2:14 pm)

The person does not have serious mental problems. The person also has the max of federal loans and has private loans that the parents consigned thinking the guy would be able to pay them back.

Reply Like (0)
lazlo (Jun 28, 2017 - 1:10 pm)

OP you said you could help him get a job where you work. The only way becoming a lawyer would make sense is if you could practically guarantee that he would be employed, and he would earn enough to make a living and hold the creditors at bay. That sounds like a tall order, unfortunately.

Are there other jobs an MD not licensed to practice medicine can hold (MD-advantage / MD-preferred, lol)? I don't know if there are, but he should truly exhaust all alternative HC career options before gambling on law school.

Sincerely wishing him the best, that's a tough fate to deal with.

Reply Like (0)
dingbat (Jun 28, 2017 - 3:26 pm)

army will accept up to age 42

Reply Like (0)
jd4hire (Jun 28, 2017 - 1:28 pm)

No to law school. I'd direct him to circle back to the school and work with them to try and help with alternative options. My two siblings are physicians - not sure if you can repeat match day, but it would seem crazy that if you don't match once, that's it.

While he might be a low rung on the physician totem pole, I'd rather be there than the vast majority of attorneys. I'd also have him start looking for administrative positions. I would think masters in healthcare administration would be more helpful than a JD.

What about selling pharmaceuticals? Heck, I'd be a nurse before a lawyer if I did it all over.

Reply Like (0)
aspiringlawyer (Jun 28, 2017 - 2:16 pm)

The person obtained a Master's degree while applying to medical school.

Reply Like (0)
therewillbeblood (Jun 28, 2017 - 2:00 pm)

Just find another country with flexible doctor licensing laws and practice there.

Or become a med mal paralegal.

Reply Like (0)
patenttrollnj (Jun 28, 2017 - 2:12 pm)

No, do not go to law school. Your relative will have even more debt, and no job.

Besides, what makes you think they'll like law?

Tell your relative to try getting licensed as a PA or a Medical Technologist. Hospitals are full of foreign medical school graduates that could not get licensed here but work in other roles. My mother, for example, once worked with a laboratory technologist who had an MD from South America, but was not licensed to practice here.

Reply Like (0)
wolfman (Jun 28, 2017 - 3:03 pm)

lab tech may be a possibility (it pays crap however), but this person will not be able to get licensed as a PA w/out two years of PA school... midlevels protect their turf like crazy, and no one wants a "failed doc." This person has no business going to LS, but OP is right about his options being limited.

Reply Like (0)
patenttrollnj (Jun 28, 2017 - 5:06 pm)

Good point! I didn't realize how protective the PAs are, but it makes sense. The MD's I've heard about who became PA's did go back to school, after a prolonged period of not working (thus rendering the MD useless).

As for lab techs, from what I understand, they start with crap pay, but there is opportunity to advance, provided you work in a large enough institution. The department managers get paid reasonably well. Also, it's not a situation like it is with pharmacists. There is no glut, so job opportunities are plentiful--albeit not necessarily high paying ones.

Other option for this individual: a postdoc. A research career may be possible.

Also, they should look into medical writing.

Plus, if they have some time, sit and study for the patent bar (you don't have to be a lawyer). If they pass, they can apply for patent agent jobs, which in my opinion (based on my experience) are preferred by patent firms for many patent prosecution jobs.

Reply Like (0)
cranky (Jun 28, 2017 - 2:24 pm)

Something ain't right here. I thought almost every med school graduate could get a residency, and if not, go work as a pathologist, in a lab, etc. How about teaching somewhere or going back to the school to ask for career advice? I give a resounding NO to law school. If this person has mental or personality issues that kept him from getting into a residency program, he's even less likely to succeed in law school and get a legal job.

Reply Like (0)
wolfman (Jun 28, 2017 - 3:00 pm)

Cranky, of course something isn't right, but... virtually every American MD/DO grad can get a residency, especially if they go through the match more than once and investigate residencies that don't participate in the match, but that doesn't mean EVERY ONE gets one, or finishes one. For a really extreme case, google Michael Swango, but even without being a criminal, it's possible to fail USMLE, or get dismissed in such a way that no one will take you. Being a pathologist requires a pathology residency, and working in a lab as anything other than a temporary research assistant is tough to get and pays little... having an MD but no residency is a VERY difficult position to be in (which is why most residency dismissals results in lawsuits, unless the person can get in somewhere else).

You are right however: none of this means he should go to law school; like I said above, this person may never even be able to be admitted due to C&F issues and/or debt.

Reply Like (0)
aspiringlawyer (Jun 28, 2017 - 3:51 pm)

Think about it like failing the bar but never being able to take it again.

Reply Like (0)
toooldtocare (Jun 28, 2017 - 4:06 pm)

Ok, others have pointed this out, but something isn't right about this story. Based on the above, he's a graduate of a US medical school, so:
1. The guy didn't match-if this is correct, then he has his M.D. So why didn't he enter the "scramble" for unmatched 4th year med students?
2. And if the scramble didn't work out, why doesn't he beg the med school to let him work as a lab assistant or admissions assistant or (fill in the blank); the medical schools have a vested interest in having all graduates match, so they are usually pretty good about helping out a recent grad, at least for one year.
3. And with an actual M.D., there are many other possibilities(drug rep, for example) that beat working at a convenience store.
4. There's a lot missing from this story. But no matter what, going to law school isn't the answer.

Reply Like (0)
toooldtocare (Jun 28, 2017 - 6:12 pm)

Something is missing here-why is he "never able to take it again."

Reply Like (0)
aspiringlawyer (Jun 28, 2017 - 7:42 pm)

He took the test the maximum number of times and failed. You can't just take it over and over again like the bar.

Reply Like (0)
wolfman (Jun 29, 2017 - 10:48 am)

Do you know which USMLE step he failed? I'm assuming Step 2?

Reply Like (0)
aspiringlawyer (Jun 29, 2017 - 5:40 pm)

I think it was Step 3, but I'm not sure. I don't ask questions in this touchy situation. So embarrassing!

Reply Like (0)
sjlawyer (Jun 28, 2017 - 4:22 pm)

No. There isn't much more to this statement. A JD as a "last option" is a terrible option.

Reply Like (0)
anothernjlawyer (Jun 28, 2017 - 4:57 pm)

All a JD is going to do is cost him three years when he could be finding a real career.

If he can't get a residency / licensed in the US, as an earlier poster said, what about going outside the US? There have to be places where a US med school graduate can get a residency / medical license.....being a doctor in Brazil or something has to be better than a convenience store clerk in the US.

Reply Like (0)
bizzybone1313 (Jun 28, 2017 - 4:58 pm)

He should move overseas, preferably a place like the Middle East and start his life over. They can't garner his checks for the 400K in loans he owes or whatever. And then give money to his parents for the next 10 years.

His best bet is just to forget about his failure to become a doctor and move overseas and start a new career or work in a medical type career in the Middle East. And tell Sallie Mae to go fuxk themselves in terms of the 400K in loans he owes them. Let them keep calling until they get tired of calling a number that doesn't exist anymore because he's overseas.

Reply Like (0)
bizzybone1313 (Jun 28, 2017 - 5:02 pm)

When a lawyer isn't happy with his life in the US, he should do the same thing. If he owes 200K in loans and can't get a good job, he should just default on the debt and move overseas to the Middle East and try their hardest to get a good job. Their life would be infinitely better. At some point, law schools will get the hint and bring the tuition down once students and graduates wisen up and beginning sticking it to them.

Reply Like (0)
onehell (Jun 28, 2017 - 7:22 pm)

I have never understood why Americans think they can just pick up and move to another country. You need a visa that allows you to live and work there to do that, and getting that requires:

1. A rare and valuable skill (which a US JD is not);
2. A fiancé/spouse/immediate family member who can sponsor you;
3. An employer who will sponsor you (once again, this means extreme prestige or agreeing to work for poverty-level wages teaching English in Asia or something)
4. Sufficient independent wealth or unearned/passive income for a retirement or investor visa; or
5. Go on a student visa and hope that you will obtain one of #s 1-3 before you graduate from the foreign school. (Usually this means meeting and marrying a native.)

I don't know anyone who doesn't already have dual citizenship who has emigrated to another country without at least one of the above situations being applicable, other than those people who live as a quasi-illegal immigrant in a place like Thailand by doing those repeated tourist "visa runs" and working under the table or freelancing over the internet.

Reply Like (0)
bizzybone1313 (Jun 28, 2017 - 7:35 pm)

He better figure something out. He will never be able to pay back "half a million" in loans without a doctor type salary. Never ever. His life is pretty much ruined in the U.S. The guy is gonna have to become a rapper or something to get his life on track or become a lottery winner.

Reply Like (0)
onehell (Jun 28, 2017 - 7:38 pm)

If he's single, I'd go with #5. Find a foreign degree program (the longer, the better) and take out more loans to enroll in it. Use the time in the degree program to meet someone with citizenship and marry them.

As others have suggested, he could also go back to PA school. With IBR, the debt is just a number if he dutifully fills out his forms.

I suppose it's possible that the US MD would allow him to have that "rare and valuable" skillset for #1, if there are any countries out there that will license a US MD without a residency. I don't know whether there are, but there is a shortage of docs all over the world.

Reply Like (0)
aspiringlawyer (Jun 28, 2017 - 7:44 pm)

Seriously, a rapper?

Reply Like (0)
bizzybone1313 (Jun 29, 2017 - 11:06 am)

That was an inside joke. I am aspiring rapper. I am going to release a hip hop EP. You guys should join us more often in the dome and offtopic.

Reply Like (0)
secondcareerlawyer (Jun 28, 2017 - 6:12 pm)

If he's young and fit enough why not apply ti a pseudo military/civil corps type mos. For ex. Merchant marines,public health service, etc. If you want to think off the track theres a big need for medical fields in Indian reservations and up in Alaska. His debt would be forgiven and rent taken care of while stationed. If in the merchant marines the academy is almost free and once on ship they dont pay for food or rooms enabling many to save up money.

Reply Like (0)
ericcrapton (Jun 28, 2017 - 7:07 pm)

I knew of a person in this situation who did physicals for the military

Reply Like (0)
bigsal (Jun 29, 2017 - 9:32 am)

Is there something in this person's background that prevents licensure? I smell criminality

Reply Like (0)
wolfman (Jun 29, 2017 - 10:48 am)

BigSal, it was easy to miss in the torrent of posts, but apparently this guy failed USMLE and ran out of times to retake it. I assume it was Step 2 since he apparently has his MD... does that make sense? I always thought Step 1 was halfway through med school and Step 3 was after internship, so that leaves 2... is it even possible to "get your MD" while failing Step 2? He also never got an internship or a residency, obviously.

I really think he needs some expert legal advice (which is kind of ironic) as to which states may be more lenient as far as the six-attempt rule and the other rule (seven years to take and pass all three steps?), so he can maybe try to get into at least a bottom-of-the-barrel one-year internship program or a family medicine residency in a bad area to get licensed somewhere... instead of another three years in school to get a JD LOL.

Of course, criminality si also possible... and if it's bad enough to rule out MD licensure, I'd guess it would also cause massive problems for C&F part of the bar admissions process.

Reply Like (0)
aspiringlawyer (Jun 29, 2017 - 5:46 pm)

No, clean record. He just failed the test.

Reply Like (0)
bigsal (Jun 29, 2017 - 4:32 pm)

I would say step 3. You just need a MD to take it.

That being said, step 2 and 3 are kind of jokes. And if you can't pass them, idk if you should be a MD. You might wind up being one of those people whose logic I question when their patient tanks and gets admitted.

Many schools condition graduation on passing step 2.

Reply Like (0)
wolfman (Jun 29, 2017 - 6:05 pm)

You are probably right.

"Many schools condition graduation on passing step 2"

that's what I always thought, so I'm a little confused... and yeah, I've heard of people from the Carribean failing Step 1 and having to retake, and also of (fewer) people who failed Step 2 and thus weren't able to graduate... but have not really heard of anyone failing Step 3.

I really don't get how one could not just fail step 3 but keep failing it... something is wrong there.

I know a Russian doc who took and USMLE in his mid-50s, after basically learning all of his English in middle age. He passed, and got an anesthesiology (!) residency in a big, albeit rural, hospital (he had been an anesthesiologist in the Soviet military and was a doc in Afganistan). Finished residency, practiced anesthesiology in the same hospital until his 70s and then semi-retired (still does locum and expert witness work, and seems to have plenty of money haha).

Reply Like (0)
bigsal (Jun 29, 2017 - 4:35 pm)

I did step 1 after second year

Step 2 as a fourth year

And step 3 during my intern year.

Reply Like (0)
Post a message in this thread