Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

Bad PR for PLSF

Wage slaves accross America are happy to subsidize living st triplesix07/21/17
The American Enterprise Institute, where the author works, i blackholelaw07/21/17
It's leeches. goodmorningmidnite07/23/17
He had a good point though. vohod07/23/17
Never, ever, bet against an American's anger towards someone vohod07/21/17
Nothing says social justice like doc reviews subsidizing edu triplesix07/21/17
Im paying $2,000/month on my skoo loans. Sucks huge. Once th vohod07/21/17
You're doing it wrong. Get on REPAYE and pay $500 a month to flyer1407/21/17
My debt is under 50k now. Graduated in 2014 with 97k. I stop vohod07/21/17
I used to listen to Dave Ramsey. The problem is that Ramsey jdcumlaude07/24/17
AEI is a conservative think tank that advocates lining the p mrtor07/21/17
Government will not abolish ibr and it's surrogates... Over triplesix07/21/17
How do you figure that? Many people on IBR/PAYE/REPAYE are n mrtor07/21/17
I guess I would narrow it down to legal world but that's jus triplesix07/21/17
I've said it before and I'll say it again, they can't just a loblawyer07/21/17
I won't comment on how probable any repeal is, but I think i mrtor07/21/17
Sound and fury signifying nothing. They can't change the pro karlmarx07/21/17
Kinda like they can't take away bankruptcy protection? triplesix07/21/17
Even trumps proposal doesn't change it retroactively. You se karlmarx07/21/17
No clue about whether PSLF survives, but doing away with IBR thirdtierlaw07/21/17
Just wait until the $250k-$400k trap school debts start gett molawmo07/21/17
I have monopoly level debt and have no interest in forgivene loblawyer07/21/17
People comparing IBR and PSLF are putting logic aside. IBR i vohod07/21/17
A big sacrifice for doing Lord's work really. triplesix07/21/17
Over 25-30 years most student loans are getting paid. The av vohod07/21/17
we have the best orphan dease treatments in the world, while triplesix07/21/17
He's forgetting one thing: One reason tuition is so high in onehell07/21/17
Campos debunked this point years ago man.. Funding for th triplesix07/21/17
I know the Campos article, and usually I'm a big fan of his. onehell07/21/17
Skeptical of slate but I will look over some raw data to get triplesix07/21/17
It's like asking Soviet factories just to be "more efficient karlmarx07/24/17

triplesix (Jul 21, 2017 - 8:45 am)

Wage slaves accross America are happy to subsidize living standards of government/non-profit leaches who have advanced degrees but poor financial skills.


http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/07/21/public-service-loan-forgiveness-cost-double-000478

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blackholelaw (Jul 21, 2017 - 8:59 am)

The American Enterprise Institute, where the author works, is a conservative think tank... so, unsurprising he's a PSLF hater.

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goodmorningmidnite (Jul 23, 2017 - 7:27 pm)

It's leeches.

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vohod (Jul 23, 2017 - 7:55 pm)

He had a good point though.

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vohod (Jul 21, 2017 - 9:31 am)

Never, ever, bet against an American's anger towards someone making $2,000 more than him with slightly better hours. That is how the "rewrite PSLF" campaign will take hold.

Do you ever notice the people most ambivalent to min wage hikes are either the .01% or the masses making a dollar an hour over minimum wage?

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triplesix (Jul 21, 2017 - 9:33 am)

Nothing says social justice like doc reviews subsidizing education of government employees.

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vohod (Jul 21, 2017 - 9:37 am)

Im paying $2,000/month on my skoo loans. Sucks huge. Once they are paid I'm resigning the state bar and professionally protesting outside schools and gov't buildings.

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flyer14 (Jul 21, 2017 - 2:43 pm)

You're doing it wrong. Get on REPAYE and pay $500 a month tops... write off the rest completely by the time you're ready to retire.

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vohod (Jul 21, 2017 - 3:24 pm)

My debt is under 50k now. Graduated in 2014 with 97k. I stopped IBRing because its clear I will repay the principal just a matter of how many 10s of thousands in interest Id want to IBR.

The Dave Ramsey show set a fire under my ass.

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jdcumlaude (Jul 24, 2017 - 7:33 pm)

I used to listen to Dave Ramsey. The problem is that Ramsey is completely ignorant to the nature of law school scam debt and the ability to pay back the loan.

I am now above 250k...I make less than 40k per year and have a family. Rice and Beans and Beans and Rice is not a solution...just a way to make my family miserable due to my financial choice to attend a trash law school.

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mrtor (Jul 21, 2017 - 9:38 am)

AEI is a conservative think tank that advocates lining the pockets of bankers, oil companies, and defense contractors in 24k gold rather than giving even a penny to average Americans.

I'm not going to defend the ballooning costs of higher education -- which must be regulated and brought under control -- but I also do not believe PSLF is the scam that the author is trying to define it as. PSLF is only under fire because it's now time to pay the piper. If anyone thinks IBR/PAYE/REPAYE are safe, they're fooling themselves. All of these programs will be targeted once the government actually has to start ponying up the cash.

The feigned naivety of the author is comical. It's as if no one has ever used a government program to their advantage. AEI's bank, oil, and defense contractor donors abuse the system extraordinarily worse than the relatively few high debt-high earning public and nonprofit workers he takes issue with. PSLF serves an important purpose for the vast majority of lower earning government workers. Envious private sector workers who are on repayment plans themselves should cull their support for abolishing PSLF or they may too find themselves at the end of that very sword in a couple of years.

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triplesix (Jul 21, 2017 - 9:46 am)

Government will not abolish ibr and it's surrogates... Over the long term everyone pays enough to make it worth while. We got to cut plsf bc it is unfair to low earners in private sector. Gov jobs in my states and nonprofits are obtained through corruption, why should American wage earners subsidize this corruption?

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mrtor (Jul 21, 2017 - 10:05 am)

How do you figure that? Many people on IBR/PAYE/REPAYE are not even paying the full interest on their loans, let alone the principal. That would not constitute "paying enough to make it worth while." If PSLF is estimated to cost $24 billion, it's only about a third of the overall costs of all income-driven repayment plans (since PSLF estimates are sharply increasing, we can expect the other programs' cost estimates to be erroneously low as well). If they're raising a stink about $24 billion, do you really think they will look the other way when it comes to the other $50+ billion?

If PSLF is sunk, all of these income-driven repayment plans will be targeted once their costs are accurately measured in anticipation of the government paying them.

I'm also not quite sure why you would think there's any significant "corruption" in public and non-profit hiring. I'm not denying the existence of some very small scale quid pro quo here or there, but that's no different than what goes on in the private sector. To realistically believe that "hiring corruption" is a systemic issue in the public and non-profit sectors is a bit wacky, especially for non-profits. It sounds more like jealousy or envy than a realistic belief.

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triplesix (Jul 21, 2017 - 10:11 am)

I guess I would narrow it down to legal world but that's just my experience coming from a southern state.

Regarding your point on ibr...

My logic is that since most people don't owe that much, if they ibr they deff pay enough to cover 40k principal over 20-25 years. This is just my guestimath. I am not doubting that 100k+ people won't pay enough, they are about 10% of all borrowers. So if they do go after it will be I similar way they go after plsf, cap forgiveness?

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loblawyer (Jul 21, 2017 - 10:10 am)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, they can't just abolish IBR. It's in the promissory notes, part of the deal. And even if they could, it's not magically going to lead to higher repayment numbers. It'll just convert the current huge numbers of soft default (I think it's near 50% of all borrowers paying less than interest accrual) into hard default. At a minimum it'll hurt the real estate market since a lot of millennial buyers will be off the table.

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mrtor (Jul 21, 2017 - 10:17 am)

I won't comment on how probable any repeal is, but I think it's clear that conservative hawks are focusing in on income-driven repayment plans as a cost-cutting measure. I'm not on IBR/PAYE/REPAYE so I do not know the specific language in the promissory note (yet, just took a new job that would qualify for PSLF), but I know there has been chatter about increasing the percentage and payment period. If they can modify those, they could drastically reduce the cost of the program to the detriment of anyone on it.

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karlmarx (Jul 21, 2017 - 10:15 am)

Sound and fury signifying nothing. They can't change the program retroactively. These are all sunk costs now

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triplesix (Jul 21, 2017 - 10:17 am)

Kinda like they can't take away bankruptcy protection?

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karlmarx (Jul 21, 2017 - 10:21 am)

Even trumps proposal doesn't change it retroactively. You seriously think if it was a legally viable option he wouldnt be pursuing it? He pushes the limit on everything

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thirdtierlaw (Jul 21, 2017 - 11:13 am)

No clue about whether PSLF survives, but doing away with IBR would be a disaster and not make a ton of financial sense. Even with IBR a surprising chunk of people are in default. Wait to see how many people just straight up stop paying anything if IBR, disappears.

It's much better to get $50-100 a month over 20 years than $0. People who are struggling would lose all incentive to pay anything.

It'd also dramatically decrease the small amount of purchasing power IBR people have. I'd much rather have them purchasing goods, than repaying the government at a level that isn't even touching the interest.

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molawmo (Jul 21, 2017 - 11:20 am)

Just wait until the $250k-$400k trap school debts start getting forgiven. . . The pitchforks will be out

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loblawyer (Jul 21, 2017 - 2:07 pm)

I have monopoly level debt and have no interest in forgiveness of principal. Lower the interest rates on federally backed debt to something sane. At most shave off some uncapitalized interest so I have an economic incentive to pay down the principal.

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vohod (Jul 21, 2017 - 11:28 am)

People comparing IBR and PSLF are putting logic aside. IBR is 25 years or 30 years of paying, plus tax bomb.

PSLF is the first 10 years of a career (many of which are lower paid years) then you are let free a d clear.

grade A liberal arts "math" ITT.

PS: private sector sucks! Enjoy that extra $1,000 a year with your matchless 401k and $300/mo higher insurance premiums---oh and you get a Work Phone to browse pr0n on and answer email at 4:17AM. Public: pension, vacation, solid reliable pay check, low odds of being laid of without cause.

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triplesix (Jul 21, 2017 - 11:43 am)

A big sacrifice for doing Lord's work really.

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vohod (Jul 21, 2017 - 11:50 am)

Over 25-30 years most student loans are getting paid. The average debtor does not get to lawl skoo levels.

Most doctors work in non-profit hospitals. All PSLF eligible.

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triplesix (Jul 21, 2017 - 11:56 am)

we have the best orphan dease treatments in the world, while people are dying left and right from preventable causes!

Health industry deserves another 12% raise this year!

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onehell (Jul 21, 2017 - 3:37 pm)

He's forgetting one thing: One reason tuition is so high in the first place is the failure of states to adequately fund their public universities.

These programs don't really subsidize the students. They subsidize the universities. The failure they are compensating for is in many cases not that of the student, but that of the states, which have seen fit to fund more prisons instead of more education.

I think the best way to reform PSLF is not to ditch it, but to target it more precisely. For example, they could allow only graduates of public schools to use it (unless, for example, your state had no public option for your field of study at the time you went). This would target the program towards students who not only work in public service, but who also took steps to keep their debt as low as they could reasonably be expected to, thus addressing at least some of the moral hazard aspect of unlimited borrowing combined with the potential of unlimited forgiveness.

We should also close the "doctor loophole" by excluding employment that is part of a residency program, with the possible exception of relatively low-paid specialties that have widespread shortages like primary care and psychiatry, and residencies in underserved/rural areas where the doc shortage is particularly acute.

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triplesix (Jul 21, 2017 - 3:51 pm)

Campos debunked this point years ago man..

Funding for the most part stayed the same but the school increased their bdugets which makes it look like state funding has decreased significantly in percentage points while the actual money is about the same.

Good try tho

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onehell (Jul 21, 2017 - 4:10 pm)

I know the Campos article, and usually I'm a big fan of his. But on that one he missed the mark. While there are certainly other factors, like administrative costs and palatial luxury dorms and gyms with lazy rivers and money-losing Title IX and low-division sports programs, state funding HAS declined significantly on a per-pupil basis:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/04/06/why_is_college_so_expensive_the_new_york_times_offers_an_awful_explanation.html

States should fund their public universities better, but they should also demand more accountability in exchange. The rush to have the nicest buildings, to build a research reputation and the best sports stadiums, etc, are indeed unnecessary frills. Heck, there are big name professors with no teaching duties at all. We need adequately-funded public universities and we need them to offer an adequate but no-frills education, with a primary focus on teaching, not research and sports. Until that happens, IBR and PSLF and GradPLUS are all working together to fill that gap.

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triplesix (Jul 21, 2017 - 4:45 pm)

Skeptical of slate but I will look over some raw data to get a perspective.

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karlmarx (Jul 24, 2017 - 2:03 pm)

It's like asking Soviet factories just to be "more efficient". But then of course this is slate.

My law school managed to hire a standalone dean level 130k+ diversity director that posts cartoons showing blacks behind whites in a foot race as representing what aa is a remedy to solve. This is on top a separate diversity administration at the university with probably a million dollars in salary, 5 to 6 separately funded racial identity groups with their own buildings, etc.

I fail to see the return on investment on getting more kids into chicno or gender studies.

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