Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

Do you think they should do personality testing for law school admissions?

I realize this would be against the interests of law schools notreallyalawyer08/21/17
Have met hundreds of successful attorneys. All different pe vespucius08/21/17
This. Introverted attorneys usually gravitate toward transac mrtor08/22/17
You sound like forth tier law school admission scum professi triplesix08/22/17
You sound like you need a Snickers, princess. But, then agai mrtor08/22/17
Keep on shilling generic statements you heard in lawl school triplesix08/22/17
I'm in the real world and I'm succeeding. Maybe you would do mrtor08/22/17
666 is on the money here. "There's work for every type o superttthero08/22/17
Not for someone like me who has horrific anxiety. I literall notreallyalawyer08/22/17
I hate to say it, but these are issues that would hold you b mrtor08/22/17
No need for personality testing, but they need to reform how kramer71608/22/17
No. Personality testing is hogwash, pseudo-science. If p superttthero08/22/17
As much as I despise the way the student loan industry opera caj11108/22/17
You are missing the point. Tuition is as high as it is be superttthero08/22/17
Now that we have unlimited GradPLUS and FFEL has been abolis onehell08/22/17
Great idea! Tell 95% of the prospective law students that th nighthawk08/22/17
Basically my psychologist tells me I have to be prepared for notreallyalawyer08/22/17
I doubt it would be helpful other than alerting someone that qdllc08/22/17
Personality tests are BS and could be attacked as discrimina onehell08/22/17
I don't see how a personality test would have mattered. If bittersweet08/22/17
I've seen a psychiatrist and psychologist for many years, do notreallyalawyer08/22/17
Legal employers actively looking for flaws to keep their sla triplesix08/22/17
"Why not study to be an actuary or something like that?" onehell08/22/17
Heh, I actually went into college, knowing my personality wo notreallyalawyer08/22/17
I feel for you. What's sad is that there aren't really " onehell08/23/17
bittersweet is credited. I hear a whole lot of sob stories, mrtor08/23/17
Perhaps the law schools could require in-person interviews b cargo08/23/17

notreallyalawyer (Aug 21, 2017 - 5:20 pm)

I realize this would be against the interests of law schools, as it would reduce the number of people paying tuition, but I think bar associations should require schools to do it, at least for ABA credentials... If they had weeded me out, I would have saved myself a lot of agony. I simply don't have the personality to be a lawyer, I can't do any kind of speaking to save my life, and now I'm paying the price, unemployable, in debt, with no prospects, and this could have been prevented if they just weeded people like me out, who are academically qualified, but would be failures as lawyers due to their personalities.

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vespucius (Aug 21, 2017 - 5:51 pm)

Have met hundreds of successful attorneys. All different personalities.

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mrtor (Aug 22, 2017 - 9:36 am)

This. Introverted attorneys usually gravitate toward transactional work, while the more flamboyant and "stereotypical" attorneys excel in litigation. There's work for every type of personality in between. It simply sounds like you haven't found the right fit.

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triplesix (Aug 22, 2017 - 9:50 am)

You sound like forth tier law school admission scum professional. Good job dear.

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mrtor (Aug 22, 2017 - 10:15 am)

You sound like you need a Snickers, princess. But, then again, maybe you're always this miserable of a person. Glad I'm not.

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triplesix (Aug 22, 2017 - 11:13 am)

Keep on shilling generic statements you heard in lawl school that have no meaning in real world.

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mrtor (Aug 22, 2017 - 11:42 pm)

I'm in the real world and I'm succeeding. Maybe you would do the same if you turned your attitude around. Neither your upbringing nor your education definitively control your success. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and figure out how to make the most of your situation.

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superttthero (Aug 22, 2017 - 11:31 am)

666 is on the money here.

"There's work for every type of personality in between. "


LOL. No, there's actually almost no work regardless of personality. Unless somehow you make it on OCI, don't mind $35k for unethical and 60+ hours per week work, or somehow have 5 years experience out of the gate. (These options would be fine if it didn't come at a $150K+ cost).

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notreallyalawyer (Aug 22, 2017 - 12:17 pm)

Not for someone like me who has horrific anxiety. I literally cannot speak when I'm under pressure, if words come out, the word order is wrong, I wouldn't be able to answer my name. This comes up during interviews, and making presentations. If I spoke up at meetings at work, it was only after minutes of saying the question in my head. If I had to explain a document, I'd just say I can't see that far, but just say a word or two about it, then they'd read it and see why it was important, that's how I had to get out of explaining things, because otherwise I would have done a horrible job at it.

People like me had no business being in law school. I could do well in law school because I can write well under pressure, I'm a decent writer, but I can't speak to save my life. was in the top 5% of my class, on law review, even was published, and can't get a job to save my life, just 13-14 years of doc review.. and now I can't get that any more.

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mrtor (Aug 22, 2017 - 11:49 pm)

I hate to say it, but these are issues that would hold you back in virtually any career. Law school may not have been the ideal choice, but it is not the cause of your problems.

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kramer716 (Aug 22, 2017 - 10:22 am)

No need for personality testing, but they need to reform how they compile the employment numbers. I remember hearing the speech that 95% of graduates found employment within 6 months of graduation. They need to include in that speech given to 1Ls that maybe 20 to 25% of those graduates are in legal employment, and the rest are bartending. These stats should also be included in the US News and World Report issue. If you get all the facts and still want to do law school then knock yourself out.

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superttthero (Aug 22, 2017 - 11:11 am)

No. Personality testing is hogwash, pseudo-science.

If people want to waste their money, they should let them. The only things that need to be done with respect to law school are the following:

- Punish severely misleading employment stats
- Make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy
- Get the fed out of the lending game with respect to professional degrees, private schools.

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caj111 (Aug 22, 2017 - 12:03 pm)

As much as I despise the way the student loan industry operates and as nice as it would be to make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy, that would result in higher interest rates because the loans would be higher risk to the lenders.

Alternatively, you'd have numerous lenders get out of the game, and then there would be a shortage of student loan funds. Some people would be dumb enough to use credit cards and higher interest unsecured bank loans to finance whatever they couldn't get on student loans, and I think in the long term, things would get worse, just looking at the big picture.

Maybe some people would come to their senses and not go to law and/or other professional schools if they couldn't get the student loan financing though. That would be nice.

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superttthero (Aug 22, 2017 - 12:08 pm)

You are missing the point.

Tuition is as high as it is because of the lending.

Curtail the lending, tuition will drop. The price of law school is not the cost of professors and the building--which should be the absolute lion's share of the cost.. it's whatever they can charge--which with loans is a lot.

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onehell (Aug 22, 2017 - 1:46 pm)

Now that we have unlimited GradPLUS and FFEL has been abolished, there aren't many private lenders still in the game. At least at the origination stage, it's almost all direct lending from the feds, and of course those have IBR.

The private loans that are left generally require a cosigner, so even if filing BK were made easier, most such borrowers would be screwing over their own parents pretty hard.

The name of the game now is what places like SoFi do, which is they basically refinance existing loans that are already in repayment with borrowers who have established a good track record and can prove high incomes. In other words, they just skim off the "cream of the crop" good loans that are unlikely to default anyway. They leave the garbage with the taxpayers.

I'm all for eliminating bankruptcy-proofing of private student loans, just saying it doesn't solve the larger problem which is the federal loans and the inflated prices the availability of those loans facilitates.

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nighthawk (Aug 22, 2017 - 11:33 am)

Great idea! Tell 95% of the prospective law students that they should be flipping burgers at McDonalds.

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notreallyalawyer (Aug 22, 2017 - 12:14 pm)

Basically my psychologist tells me I have to be prepared for this eventuality, though possibly only as a stepping stone. I have accepted I'm going to be severely underemployed my life, it's just a question of how underemployed.

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qdllc (Aug 22, 2017 - 12:26 pm)

I doubt it would be helpful other than alerting someone that they may be pursuing the practice of law for the wrong reason (e.g., expectations are not in line with the reality).

There used to be a place for attorneys of all temperaments, but as the market changes, often the opportunities change as well. Just as introverts thought accounting was a safe job not requiring people skills, now accounting firms expect every accountant to deal with customers directly.

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onehell (Aug 22, 2017 - 2:06 pm)

Personality tests are BS and could be attacked as discriminatory. So that's not a good idea, though schools should definitely be more upfront about the fact that the jobs for introverted lawyers are largely reserved for the top 14 crowd.

Success from a low-ranked law school requires more hustle than brain power, and yet law school attracts people who are often very risk-averse. It also teaches a curriculum that magnifies this risk-averse behavior. State bars, meanwhile, are more concerned with the dignity of the profession than the survival of lawyers, and they do what they can to protect the established members at the expense of the n00bs (e.g. by limiting advertising as much as they constitutionally can, prohibiting you from paying for leads and cold-calling, investigating bar complaints against solos more vigorously, etc).

If you have the gift of gab, there are lots of sales jobs that don't require going into 200k of debt. People usually go to law school precisely because they DON'T want to end up as salesmen, and yet it's that gift of gab that a low-ranked LS grad needs more than anything else. It's a tragic disconnect and one of which more people must be made aware, no question. Just don't think personality testing is the way to do it.

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bittersweet (Aug 22, 2017 - 4:25 pm)

I don't see how a personality test would have mattered. If you have anxiety, why did you choose a profession where people argue with each other for a living. Why not study to be an actuary or something like that?

More importantly, what are you doing to address the problem? Besides coming here and kvetching I mean.

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notreallyalawyer (Aug 22, 2017 - 4:52 pm)

I've seen a psychiatrist and psychologist for many years, doesn't help.. But I am trying. I didn't know how bad it was going to be when I went to law school. I then did well in law school, very well, figuring employers might overlook my personality flaws. I was wrong.

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triplesix (Aug 22, 2017 - 5:21 pm)

Legal employers actively looking for flaws to keep their slave stable in line. They know if your butthole relaxes too much you might get uppity about long hours and crappy benefits. This is pimpin' 101, dawg.

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onehell (Aug 22, 2017 - 5:48 pm)

"Why not study to be an actuary or something like that?"

Because the typical person to whom this discussion applies is not only an introvert, but also someone who has a distaste for both math and science. They probably avoided those subjects as much as possible in undergrad, and likely did just barely well enough in whatever minimal science/math they had to do to meet general education requirements.

Law school, meanwhile, is the only professional program for which neither a single undergraduate prerequisite class nor a single day of work experience is required. Almost anything else you might decide to do (other than more humanities) would effectively require you to go back to community college or something for a year or two before you could even apply to professional school in essentially any discipline. Plus, if you're just taking prereqs and not in a "degree granting program," then there is no financial aid.

So, you can either go to graduate school and get your rent paid no-questions-asked with student loans, or you can move back in with mom & dad and try to pay for random community college classes out of pocket. Which do you think will meet with more family approval? Which will feel like moving forward and which will feel like moving backwards? That's a big part of why LS is such a siren song.

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notreallyalawyer (Aug 22, 2017 - 6:19 pm)

Heh, I actually went into college, knowing my personality would limit me in many fields, to be an engineer. However I'm terrible at math and science, but I did try to learn them. I just did poorly. I had to switch to a liberal arts major to get my GPA up.

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onehell (Aug 23, 2017 - 10:34 am)

I feel for you.

What's sad is that there aren't really "math people" or "science people," it's just that the way these things are taught at the lower levels (very narrow questions with only one right answer under tight time constraints and high memorization expectations) turns people off the subjects before they get fun later on. My friends in these fields tell me it actually gets easier once you survive the "weed out" and "plug and chug" classes, but it's a shame we've designed the pedagogy this way.

It's also a shame that we can't see any value in quiet people unless they are among these so-called "math people."

I remember suggesting coding bootcamp for you in another thread. Now I'm all the more convinced. Skip that weed out crap and go straight to something that actually would be useful in a job. That's what more and more people are doing, disregarding the artificial barriers undergraduate pedagogy has placed between people and these kinds of jobs. Your previous experience imho is a failure of pedagogy not aptitude.

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mrtor (Aug 23, 2017 - 9:39 am)

bittersweet is credited. I hear a whole lot of sob stories, but not a lot of accountability. Law school was the easier choice for many, but it sounds like that same mentality carried over into a lot of careers. Instead of simply complaining, the complainers need to focus on moving themselves closer toward achieving their longer term goals. It could be as simple as applying for a new job. It could also involve more time and expense in re-training to increase one's marketability. With a little creativity, some hustle, and a desire to succeed, it is possible to dig out from a bad situation. Many people have overcome far more difficult hurdles than overeducation and some financial debt in a first world country.

Life is too short to be miserable every single day. Make a change.

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cargo (Aug 23, 2017 - 9:53 am)

Perhaps the law schools could require in-person interviews before accepting an applicant. That would screen out some introverted people.

I believe the Ivy Undergrads and at least one law school do this already.

The current job market for introverted attorneys is definitely tough. I had to talk a friend out of applying to law school recently for this reason. Law school twenty years ago would have been a perfect for him as an introvert back when large firms would hire people based on grades for backoffice associate positions.

In ITE (2008-present) introverts should avoid going to law school unless they have a rich enough family to get them a backoffice law job. Otherwise they would likely be happier going into blockchain coding jobs or something like that.

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