Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

“But he’s a good businessman” and garbage low LSAT logic like that...

I love it when I hear attorneys or staff member flukies defe ambulancechaser201310/24/17
I think this is one of the sillier posts of I've seen in the bucwild10/25/17
Good logic. Opening a hedge fund is not a real business. It nighthawk10/25/17
meant to write “flunkies”. ambulancechaser201310/24/17
Ask all those who've tried and lost big whether it's a real jeffm10/24/17
You mean setting up a workers’ comp mill. Don’t get me w ambulancechaser201310/24/17
I thought this was going to be a Trump post. therewillbeblood10/24/17
haha, metoo wutwutwut10/25/17
How good of a businessman you are is measured in dollars and superttthero10/24/17
From my experience the “better a businessman” a lawyer i ambulancechaser201310/24/17
Seems like weird criteria to be considered a business. If I thirdtierlaw10/25/17
you're an idiot dingbat10/25/17
Thanks for the vote of confidence. ambulancechaser201310/25/17
you're welcome. But maybe I was a bit brief. Some doctor dingbat10/25/17
See the responses below. ambulancechaser201310/25/17
I tend to agree, arguing over provisions in a contract that mtbislife10/25/17
I suppose it depends on what one might consider to be a real caj11110/25/17
I agree. ambulancechaser201310/25/17
No, it absolutely is a business. I figured that out when my patenttrollnj10/26/17
but you still need to cultivate those connections. All bu dingbat10/26/17
Well, there's a reason half a dozen US Senators showed-up to patenttrollnj10/26/17
Because they are friends with a partner or because your firm retard10/26/17
As if anything going on in an insurance mill is worthy of th patenttrollnj10/27/17

ambulancechaser2013 (Oct 24, 2017 - 7:21 pm)

I love it when I hear attorneys or staff member flukies defending their mill operator bosses saying in effect: “Yeah sure he’s not a good lawyer, but he’s an excellent businessman. He knows how to run a business.” What a joke. First of all running a PI operation or a WC mill is not a true business, just ask any real businessperson what they think of lawyers. Just ask the Chamber of Commerce or any small businessperson sued over the ADA racket.

But enough ranting. Running a law office is not a real business, just like running a doctor’s office is not a real business. Sure, it’s not a non profit, unless you are an unintentional non profit, ie you suck at making money. It’s not a real business because it’s a cartel to get into it, you need a law license in your state. You can’t just open up a law office. Also there are no venture capital money allowed, and daddies $1,000,000.00 gift doesn’t count.

But really, what do you think? It doesn’t take much to run a mill. A lot of advertising money and some organizational skills. Also the ability to feel out where the 75-80 value of the case is and then settle it. That’s it.

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bucwild (Oct 25, 2017 - 9:45 am)

I think this is one of the sillier posts of I've seen in the law forum.

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nighthawk (Oct 25, 2017 - 3:53 pm)

Good logic. Opening a hedge fund is not a real business. It doesn't take much to run. You need to know a little about modeling, arbitrage trading, swap markets, futures markets, otc risk hedging, IA Act, and a couple other things. No real skill or knowledge required to open such a business. Anyone can do it. No reason to think someone successful in that business pulling in 20 million a year is a good businessman.

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ambulancechaser2013 (Oct 24, 2017 - 7:38 pm)

meant to write “flunkies”.

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jeffm (Oct 24, 2017 - 7:45 pm)

Ask all those who've tried and lost big whether it's a real business.

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ambulancechaser2013 (Oct 24, 2017 - 7:51 pm)

You mean setting up a workers’ comp mill. Don’t get me wrong, I agree you can fail. Even with a mill. Even with something as “simple” as those two aforementioned areas of law. Which, for the record I do not believe are easy to do at all. PI is deceptively easy: in that it’s easy to settle most cases for far less than they are worth. Anyone can settle a clear liability fracture case, few can get 100% of the case value, some don’t even know what it’s worth. I did workers’ comp for 1 and 1/2 years at a mill until I went to do all
PI and I can tell you there is no such thing as a “bad” workers’ comp case in Southern California. They all settle.

My point stands: it’s a cartel and there can be no veture capital money. Also, yeah you can screw up big time serious litigation, but
Mill work? Not so much.

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therewillbeblood (Oct 24, 2017 - 8:19 pm)

I thought this was going to be a Trump post.

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wutwutwut (Oct 25, 2017 - 11:33 am)

haha, metoo

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superttthero (Oct 24, 2017 - 9:03 pm)

How good of a businessman you are is measured in dollars and cents.

Every business has a barrier to entry. For some it's the car you need to drive an Uber or your starting inventory. For lawyers on their own it's the bar card requirements and your start-up costs. I don't really see how a slight (as shown by the current glut of attorneys) barrier turns something into "not a business.'

You are good in business if you make money and are either honest or a scoundrel don't get caught.

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ambulancechaser2013 (Oct 24, 2017 - 9:36 pm)

From my experience the “better a businessman” a lawyer is, the less they care about being a good practitioner/litigator/Trial Attorney/whatever. The reason is simple: they get satisfaction from their Ferrari and mansion not helping their clients.

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thirdtierlaw (Oct 25, 2017 - 9:38 am)

Seems like weird criteria to be considered a business. If I wanted to open up a bar in town, I'd need approval from a zoning board. If I wanted to open up a hotdog stand I need a vendor's license. I guess I could get venture capital money. But that seems like a pretty arbitrary benchmark as to whether or not something is a business.

Managing staff and attracting clients is a pain no matter if you're running a mill, maybe especially if you're running a mill, or running a restaurant. Law firms fail all the time. So there is obviously a certain amount of skill involved.

Quite frankly, if I had either the choice of being able to bring in $3mil a year of business to a firm while being a terrible attorney vs. being one of the top legal minds of this generation but struggle to bring in business, I'd choose option 1 10 times out of 10.

Winning cases for my clients feels good. I like to think I provide high-quality work and serving an important role in the justice system, at least for my criminal work. But I get very little satisfaction from my family law clients, and that is where I make half of my money. I cannot believe that attorneys working at a mill really care about each of their 60 open cases. I'm sure they want to do their best working on the case and do well enough to keep getting referrals, but I can't see how it's possible to be emotionally invested year after year.

So give me the mansions and Ferrari working a 40 hour week, while my minions are grinding it out. Even if you don't believe that makes them a good businessman, it seems to have all the indications of what most of the population consider to be winning at life.

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dingbat (Oct 25, 2017 - 2:56 pm)

you're an idiot

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ambulancechaser2013 (Oct 25, 2017 - 4:49 pm)

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

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dingbat (Oct 25, 2017 - 5:23 pm)

you're welcome. But maybe I was a bit brief.

Some doctors/dentists/lawyers/whathaveyou run a business, some don't. If all you do is bring in a matter and work it, then bring in another matter and work it, etc., you're not running a business, you're just a freelance employee.

On the other hand, some people diligently work on the business side of the practice. I know a "dentist" who barely ever does any dentistry, but runs three dental practices. Likewise, some lawyers spend most of their time building relationships (sales) and focusing on how to run the practice more smoothly (management), with very little time actually spent lawyering.

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ambulancechaser2013 (Oct 25, 2017 - 7:54 pm)

See the responses below.

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mtbislife (Oct 25, 2017 - 4:52 pm)

I tend to agree, arguing over provisions in a contract that you know opposing counsel wont change just to bill hours or extracting nuisance money from an insurance company is not real work, you are simply a leech.

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caj111 (Oct 25, 2017 - 5:17 pm)

I suppose it depends on what one might consider to be a real business. I would agree that a lot of these PI, WC, collection, certain types of class action and other so-called law firms are nothing more than these rackets whose business has been built on filing bogus lawsuits and claims, and banking on the defendants to regard them as little more than a nuisance and offer quick settlements. I know of lawyer in Washington, DC who calls himself a "special education advocate" but all he really does is hit up the DC public school system for one settlement after another based on fairly questionable facts. Just a standard shaking down.

These "businesses" do little more than transfer money from one party to the other on the less than certain premise that one party did something wrong, but the alleged wrongdoers will just pay to make them go away rather than spend money on lawyers of their own to fight against it. Of course, the defense lawyers still need to be there to review the proposed settlement by the plaintiff's attorneys and propose changes to the settlement papers. Win-win for both sets of lawyers, and at the end of the day, does nothing but transfer money around. On the plaintiff's side, you just need to be big enough to have the business model work. The whole thing is sad, but I guess it's one of the downsides of a capitalist economy, which I think most people would agree is generally better than a planned economy (i.e. communism and some types of socialism).

Of course, you could argue that a casino does a lot of the same thing, but at least those losing their money get a few drinks, meals and entertainment along the way.

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ambulancechaser2013 (Oct 25, 2017 - 5:20 pm)

I agree.

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patenttrollnj (Oct 26, 2017 - 2:21 am)

No, it absolutely is a business. I figured that out when my paychecks started showing-up two weeks late.

Also, given how easy it is to become a lawyer, not so sure you can classify it as a cartel. If the supply of lawyers was smaller, the "cartel" label would be more appropriate.

Regardless, there is truth to what you're saying. Connections do provide one with certain "cash cows" ripe for milking, hence the praise certain partners get is unwarranted. Especially given that the caliber of law practiced at these firms is rather low, so it's clearly NOT their keen legal minds that attracted the clients.

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dingbat (Oct 26, 2017 - 9:10 am)

but you still need to cultivate those connections.

All business is sales. the most important aspect of any business is sales. You can have an inferior product, the only thing that matters is sales.

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patenttrollnj (Oct 26, 2017 - 10:57 am)

Well, there's a reason half a dozen US Senators showed-up to my seemingly unremarkable suburban firm over the past few years. It wasn't because they were our clients.

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retard (Oct 26, 2017 - 4:29 pm)

Because they are friends with a partner or because your firm is the subject of a senate subcommittee investigation?

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patenttrollnj (Oct 27, 2017 - 9:49 am)

As if anything going on in an insurance mill is worthy of the Senate's attention ... lol

No, the partners are politically connected. Their families are involved with local politics, which is essentially fundraising.

I find that most of these suburban mills are somehow associated with one of the two major political parties.

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