Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

12 year old attempts suicide by jumping off overpass, kills woman in car he lands on

http://wjla.com/news/local/police-2 2-year-old-woman-dead-aft notreallyalawyer10/29/17
Wow. Takes me back to 1L tort and criminal law. I’d sa qdllc10/29/17
12 is pretty young though, but if they engage in adult behav notreallyalawyer10/29/17
Voluntary manslaughter, possibly. I don't know VA laws, but shitlawsf10/29/17
Are the parents liable for a wrongful death suit? I can't re notreallyalawyer10/29/17
no intent to kill for murder. not sure if theres a felony defensivelawyer10/29/17
You don’t need intent to kill for murder. Malice aforethou notreallyalawyer10/29/17
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/i ndex.ssf/2017/10/drunk_dr notreallyalawyer10/29/17
recklessness definitely not enough. depraved heart...know of defensivelawyer10/29/17
Here's the latest update. http://www.nbcwashington.com/ne notreallyalawyer10/29/17
and she was majoring in councilling- y'know, helping depress thecharmingmresq10/29/17
wow that's so screwed up. notreallyalawyer10/29/17
Just for an academic debate, has there ever been a case of t notreallyalawyer10/29/17
thats intriguing. or if suicide could be the predicate felon defensivelawyer10/29/17
I say treat it like any other killing for purposes of transf wolfman10/30/17
Is suicide a crime? If not, there isn't any intent to transf esquire13810/30/17
EVen if suicide isn’t illegal aren’t the same actions di notreallyalawyer10/30/17
He should be charged just like the teens who threw a rock on fettywap10/30/17
Well he's obviously a lot more of a sympathetic case. But he notreallyalawyer10/30/17
maybe.......intent and state of mind are factors though. Int esquire13810/30/17
He intended to hit a vehicle when he landed. There was inten fettywap10/30/17
That would be hard to prove because he could have easily jus notreallyalawyer10/30/17
pretty much anything can be a civil suit, but is it WORTH it esquire13810/30/17
wow. a bunch of substantive comments and not a single "woul dingbat10/30/17
There are a lot of ways to commit self-murder, society can c jackofspeed10/30/17
Just curious, if there were some complication. Just say for notreallyalawyer10/30/17
That is the territory of potential bad facts that would impr jackofspeed10/30/17
Identity always matters in reality. Look at the flint kids. esquire13810/30/17
News people said police haven't decided yet if charges are g notreallyalawyer10/31/17
Even if charges aren't filed people could still sue. esquire13811/02/17
Of course, but sue the parents? The state for the short barr notreallyalawyer11/02/17

notreallyalawyer (Oct 29, 2017 - 3:28 pm)

http://wjla.com/news/local/police-22-year-old-woman-dead-after-12-year-old-boy-jumped-from-i-66-overpass-onto-car

I'd like to discuss the legal repercussions should the 12 year old. more concerned about criminal implications, even though there will be lawsuits about there being not enough barriers to prevent suicides. But say if the kid survives, will/should he be charged even as just a juvenile? He killed someone.

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qdllc (Oct 29, 2017 - 3:39 pm)

Wow. Takes me back to 1L tort and criminal law.

I’d say in most states the kid is facing manslaughter/negligent homicide, but being suicidal likely will cover him under some form of insanity defense.

There wouldn’t be a good reason to charge him as an adult. IF he survives, he’s going to be 57 kinds of [email protected]#*d up knowing his suicide attempt killed someone.

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notreallyalawyer (Oct 29, 2017 - 3:44 pm)

12 is pretty young though, but if they engage in adult behavior then doesn't that matter most? He engaged in an incredibly reckless act that even a 12 year old know could lead to the death or serious injury of anyone in a car he could hit.

The woman who was killed was pretty young too, should her family be deprived of a wrongful death suit?

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shitlawsf (Oct 29, 2017 - 3:44 pm)

Voluntary manslaughter, possibly. I don't know VA laws, but this sounds like the most likely charge if there is one. But I can also see no charges for many reasons. Maybe the parents or guardian for neglect or something like that.

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notreallyalawyer (Oct 29, 2017 - 3:45 pm)

Are the parents liable for a wrongful death suit? I can't remember how that works.

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defensivelawyer (Oct 29, 2017 - 3:56 pm)

no intent to kill for murder.

not sure if theres a felony here, or if VA is a felony murder state.

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notreallyalawyer (Oct 29, 2017 - 3:58 pm)

You don’t need intent to kill for murder. Malice aforethought includes recklessness

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notreallyalawyer (Oct 29, 2017 - 9:19 pm)

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2017/10/drunk_driver_convicted_of_murd.html

drunk driver convicted of murder. Happens pretty often.

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defensivelawyer (Oct 29, 2017 - 10:08 pm)

recklessness definitely not enough. depraved heart...know of the extreme risk and oroceed in distegard of those risks. not sure this case you could show kid knew of the risk to others.

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notreallyalawyer (Oct 29, 2017 - 6:48 pm)

Here's the latest update.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Police-Suicide-Attempt-by-Boy-Jumping-From-Overpass-Kills-Driver-Below-453994753.html

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thecharmingmresq (Oct 29, 2017 - 7:13 pm)

and she was majoring in councilling- y'know, helping depressed/suicidal people. irony

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notreallyalawyer (Oct 29, 2017 - 7:37 pm)

wow that's so screwed up.

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notreallyalawyer (Oct 29, 2017 - 9:09 pm)

Just for an academic debate, has there ever been a case of transferred intent in situation like this? You intended to kill yourself (which may or may not be criminal in a jurisdiction) and kill wind up killing someone else?

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defensivelawyer (Oct 29, 2017 - 10:09 pm)

thats intriguing. or if suicide could be the predicate felony for a felony murder charge. that would be kind of funny.

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wolfman (Oct 30, 2017 - 1:03 am)

I say treat it like any other killing for purposes of transferred intentand/or felony murder, but then I never agreed with the decriminalization of or removal of disbilities for suicide, abortion, buggery, and bastardy, along with a host of other things...

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esquire138 (Oct 30, 2017 - 7:06 am)

Is suicide a crime? If not, there isn't any intent to transfer.
Tossing stuff off a bridge can lead to murder (see the idiot kids in flint right now)
but they had a different mindset too. I agree that being a minor is a factor as well. I'd say first view it as "what would happen if an adult did this" in a vacuum and then separately ponder the juvenile factor.

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notreallyalawyer (Oct 30, 2017 - 8:47 am)

EVen if suicide isn’t illegal aren’t the same actions disorderly conduct ? To get at least misdeameanor manslaughter ?

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fettywap (Oct 30, 2017 - 11:17 am)

He should be charged just like the teens who threw a rock onto a car and killed a guy.

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notreallyalawyer (Oct 30, 2017 - 11:39 am)

Well he's obviously a lot more of a sympathetic case. But he still was just as reckless as they were, though maybe they even were intending to do what they did.

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esquire138 (Oct 30, 2017 - 4:12 pm)

maybe.......intent and state of mind are factors though. Intent to do property damage resulting in death vs temp insane and only desire to die

plus the factor that 12 isn't a teen too

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fettywap (Oct 30, 2017 - 11:40 am)

He intended to hit a vehicle when he landed. There was intent.

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notreallyalawyer (Oct 30, 2017 - 11:45 am)

That would be hard to prove because he could have easily just wanted to hit the ground and get killed that way. That still would pose the possibility that a car might swerve and cause an accident and get a bunch of people hurt or killed.

Assume suicide isn't illegal in Virginia, there are still other crimes here aren't there? Trespassing. Once he crossed over the barrier he wasn't in a place he was allowed to be. That behavior is also disorderly conduct. So there are crimes that could be used to get at least misdemeanor manslaughter.

I'm seeing people getting outraged over even suggesting a civil suit against the kid/parents. Apparently they think it should be just tough cookies for the family of the woman killed.

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esquire138 (Oct 30, 2017 - 4:13 pm)

pretty much anything can be a civil suit, but is it WORTH it? Likely not. I doubt this kid came from money willing to settle out of court for anything of value, or even collectable if won in court for anything worth going after. I could see a grieving person suing anyways in the "someone has to pay" mentality, but as a lawyer......not sure its worth THEIR time if on a contingency fee (and you know they would be).

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dingbat (Oct 30, 2017 - 12:30 pm)

wow. a bunch of substantive comments and not a single "would".
There is hope for JDU yet

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jackofspeed (Oct 30, 2017 - 12:34 pm)

There are a lot of ways to commit self-murder, society can choose to discourage methods that include a high risk of injuring others. Therefore I would say that the public policy goal of community safety militates in favor of criminalizing this type of suicide attempt. Even a child knows entering an active roadway is dangerous.

I think that the child would be liable for both criminal and civil liability.

On the other hand, it's unlikely the child's parents would have any liability. The depression and disordered reasoning that creates a suicide attempt is not reasonably foreseeable (absent facts not in evidence: Did the kid try killing himself before, etc.)

Hopefully the driver had full tort and under/uninsured coverage.

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notreallyalawyer (Oct 30, 2017 - 12:40 pm)

Just curious, if there were some complication. Just say for argument's sake the 12 year old felt was transgender. Would there be parental liability if the parents weren't supportive of the transgender thing, or liability for if the parents acted in a supportive way and that somehow increased the suicidal issue? I don't think the legal system has gone as PC as psychiatry has yet, so if the parents knew the child was mentally ill and ignored it or enabled the mental illness, wouldn't there be liability?

There were train tracks under the overpass too I believe, so the kid could have picked to jump where there were no cars.

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jackofspeed (Oct 30, 2017 - 1:13 pm)

That is the territory of potential bad facts that would improve civil recovery against the parents, but it's still a stretch.

Suppose an adolescent man says "I want to go to the prom dressed like a girl."

Mom says, "No Johnny they will all laugh at you and your photos will look stupid."

Johnny flies into a rage and yells "I hate you, you suck, I wish I'd never been born, I'm going to go jump off a bridge and then you'll be sorry!"

Johnny runs out the door.

Would a reasonable parent interpret that as a genuine threat of injury to self or others?

I submit the answer is No.

Instead it sounds like the overly dramatic BS teenagers have used ever since corporal punishment and the fear of God have fallen out of favor as childrearing strategies.

Foreseeability is supposed to be an "objective" test.

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esquire138 (Oct 30, 2017 - 4:19 pm)

Identity always matters in reality. Look at the flint kids. ALL white(and appear middle class). Imagine if they had killed a BLACK guy, a poor black guy even. What if one turned out to be a cops kid???? Riots and blood and burning ash, 100% chance of it.

What if the kids had been black and all other factors the same?

Good thing all were white I guess.

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notreallyalawyer (Oct 31, 2017 - 10:24 am)

News people said police haven't decided yet if charges are going to be filed.

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esquire138 (Nov 2, 2017 - 5:03 pm)

Even if charges aren't filed people could still sue.

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notreallyalawyer (Nov 2, 2017 - 5:13 pm)

Of course, but sue the parents? The state for the short barriers on the bridge over I-66?

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