Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

juris doctorate

I see this all the time on CVs, resumes, etc., and it annoys therewillbeblood11/14/17
That (incorrect) usage bugs me, too. I recall a law prof inho2solo11/14/17
I always thought JD was used to show the candidate wasn’t mightymouse1211/22/17
I'd add Physical Therapists to that list. They're like perso isthisit11/14/17
Used to be that they were thought that way, but academia and superttthero11/14/17
A doctorate even less necessary than the JD. What trainin inho2solo11/14/17
No, no wait. Let me correct myself. The absolute worst insta therewillbeblood11/14/17
Reminds me of high school, where there were a couple of PhDs rubbersoul1411/14/17
In the high school setting this should be encouraged. I'l superttthero11/14/17
Honestly, teaching at a good high school probably beats teac therewillbeblood11/14/17
My high school senior year Physics C class had 9 students. I superttthero11/14/17
Haha, what is it with chemistry and law? My high school AP C wolfman11/14/17
I went from chem to JD. Working in labs suck, so phD was out bucwild11/15/17
I'll take a PhD in chem or math teaching my kids over these massivemissive11/14/17
A PhD in math teaching high school? LOL ... That may be a b patenttrollnj11/20/17
"Teachers should have an aura of expertise in the eyes of st wutwutwut11/14/17
I'm with you. superttthero11/14/17
Anyone -- MD, PhD, JD, DNP, etc. -- who insists on being cal therewillbeblood11/14/17
I don't disagree, but there are zero circumstances where a J superttthero11/14/17
Let's put it this way: the English PhD is still at an advant patenttrollnj11/20/17
"Juris Doctorate" is indeed incorrect. That phrase is an un legalace11/14/17
"Nobody refers to the D.D.S., D.M.D., D.O., D.P.M., D.V.M., therewillbeblood11/14/17
The JD: the red headed stepchild of the academic world. h toooldtocare11/14/17
Comments section of that post is gold, man. Thanks! wutwutwut11/14/17
Totally deserved given the ABA has allowed law school admiss loblawyer11/14/17
How often do you see lawyers call themselves "Esquire"? Too tacocheese11/14/17
I have never understood the notion that accountants, dentist legalace11/14/17
No question the initials business has gotten out of control. toooldtocare11/14/17
and here I've always thought 2 score = 40. 😁 dogdaypm11/15/17
That's why I went to law school. A math talent like mine co toooldtocare11/15/17
I think everyone should do those things lightly. It makes se therewillbeblood11/15/17
I do enjoy when I see people using JD after their name on Fa lolwutjobs11/14/17
Most of the people I see doing that are unbarred lawgrads. dogdaypm11/15/17
The only people I see doing that are the ones you described. bucwild11/15/17
Ha, I'm the one who started this post and find that kind of therewillbeblood11/22/17
Esquire or Esq. are traditionally used in addressing corresp legalace11/14/17
Historically, Esquire was a title indicating the lesser son dingbat11/15/17
It's unfortunate with the implosion of the legal world how p nighthawk11/15/17
I know that dude - his name's actually "E. Alfred Wigginton, wutwutwut11/15/17
"Attorney and Counsellor-at-Law" therewillbeblood11/15/17
Although it's not the original topic of the OP, the thread d onehell11/15/17
I always thought it was kind of hilarious that the ABA did t therewillbeblood11/15/17
"dissertation is a hell of a lot more work than 30 credits w wutwutwut11/15/17
The relevant question is not whether the J.D. is the equival legalace11/15/17
Well the ABA position seems to be that use of the title by J onehell11/15/17
Vets are better. They learn how to diagnose and treat a pat qdllc11/19/17
Get ordained online. Make everyone call you "Reverend." Best anothernjlawyer11/15/17
People with doctorates in theology definitely use the doctor onehell11/15/17
hmmm, psychotherapy?... yeah, I heard of pastoral counseling wolfman11/15/17
It's everywhere, but definitely more common in the bible bel onehell11/16/17
I think that theologians were the first people in history wh therewillbeblood11/15/17
Theology is an academic discipline. Thus, a Doctor of Theol patenttrollnj11/20/17
"The first academic degrees were all law degrees-and the fir legalace11/16/17
Is funny. I used to get a kick out of seeing Esq. after my n notiers11/18/17
FWIW, I’ve seen it done both ways even by law schools. I qdllc11/19/17
Regarding the english/grammar discussion, the song "I want t nighthawk11/22/17

therewillbeblood (Nov 14, 2017 - 11:14 am)

I see this all the time on CVs, resumes, etc., and it annoys me for some reason. There is no such degree as a "juris doctorate." It's "juris doctor," or to be slightly less pretentious, "JD," or to be even slightly less pretentious than that, "law degree."

Lawyers, man. I mean, I don't think we're collectively as pompous in the titles department as chiropractors or dentists, but so many of us are approaching that level.

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inho2solo (Nov 14, 2017 - 11:37 am)

That (incorrect) usage bugs me, too.

I recall a law prof who wrote a blog rant about how it was dumb to use juris doctorate and how it didn't exist, etc. One of the commenters provided a link to her own LS using it.

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mightymouse12 (Nov 22, 2017 - 2:56 am)

I always thought JD was used to show the candidate wasn’t barred.

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isthisit (Nov 14, 2017 - 11:33 am)

I'd add Physical Therapists to that list. They're like personal trainers with doctorates.

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superttthero (Nov 14, 2017 - 11:39 am)

Used to be that they were thought that way, but academia and their own licensing bodies are pushing for PhDs. Ridiculous.

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inho2solo (Nov 14, 2017 - 11:43 am)

A doctorate even less necessary than the JD.

What training they get in the DPT program is basically what they used to get with a BS PT.

Now it costs them 3x as much to get education as it used to.

Look for the APTA (which has been pushing schools to drop BS PT and adopt DPT only programs) to start lobbying state houses for full diagnosing and program prescribing rights once they're all "doctors". Cut out that GP/Orthopedist middleman.

All the above said, I don't agree with the glorified personal trainer viewpoint. They do get a lot more specific physico-medical training than that.

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therewillbeblood (Nov 14, 2017 - 11:50 am)

No, no wait. Let me correct myself. The absolute worst instance is this:

https://www.mcphs.edu/academics/school-of-physician-assistant-studies/physician-assistant/physican-assistant-studies-doctor-of-science

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rubbersoul14 (Nov 14, 2017 - 11:45 am)

Reminds me of high school, where there were a couple of PhDs who taught English. They were called "Dr. So-and-so," even though they were likely teaching high school because they couldn't find a professor job. A professor job where no one would refer to them as Dr. So-and-so.

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superttthero (Nov 14, 2017 - 11:49 am)

In the high school setting this should be encouraged.

I'll take a "Dr. So and So" high school chemistry teacher over "Coach So and so."

I remember in high school Dr. Greenberg used to tell us that when he graduated it was into a bad market for chemists. Who knows or cares if that was true. He taught regular, honors, and AP chem. He had a passion for the subject and was never stumped on a question. He made "mole day" a big event at my high school. I also had a physics teacher who had a doctorate, best teacher I ever had. He had a passion for the subject that made you want to learn more about it. It was contagious.

We should encourage PhDs to teach high school. Teachers should have an aura of expertise in the eyes of students, and the "Dr." provides that.

My history teacher in 9th grade was "Coach Carter." Yeah.

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therewillbeblood (Nov 14, 2017 - 11:55 am)

Honestly, teaching at a good high school probably beats teaching at a mediocre college in terms of the students at least. Chadworth Preparatory Academy senior physics classes are in a lot of cases going to be more advanced than Southeastern Missouri State College's lower-level physics courses.

True story: My high school chemistry teacher had a JD. I remember being impressed at the time that he gave up the money out of what must have been some sort of love for chemistry teaching.

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superttthero (Nov 14, 2017 - 1:12 pm)

My high school senior year Physics C class had 9 students. I am by far, by far the least successful. I'm in touch, over facebook, with everyone else: Microsoft, Google, faculty at CMU, MIT, pharmacist at a large hospital, venture capitalist, MD finishing rad onc residency and the one I keep the most in contact with who has been working as an accountant for the city since he graduated in college in the early 2000s and is halfway to his pension.

Concur a good teaching gig can be better in terms of students, but I didn't go to a prep academy. It was a 5000 student high school where the AP kids were kind of insulated from everyone else.

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wolfman (Nov 14, 2017 - 1:38 pm)

Haha, what is it with chemistry and law? My high school AP Chem teacher was a young guy who liked to party (some girls saw him out in bars a few times; he was a chill bro who ignored them completely) and who frequently talked about going to law school in a few years... I dunno if he thought better or it or not, as we didn't really stay in touch.

Incidentally, at the end of this semester I'll have enough chemistry credits to quality for my state's science teaching certificate immersion program on the basis of chemistry alone (which seems like a more legit way of doing it than using all science coursework - I've had enough credits to do that for a while). So if my medical aspirations are a bust, I could think of worse things to do than teaching chem (tough to get into, of course, and you are likely to actually teach science at a ghetto middle school, not AP chemistry someplace decent... at selective public high schools where I am, a lot of faculty have PhDs).

Yeah, my HS didn't even offer Calc B or Physics C (or was it called BC or something?)... you had to go to a local CC to take it, which I decided not to do...

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bucwild (Nov 15, 2017 - 9:52 am)

I went from chem to JD. Working in labs suck, so phD was out of the question. JD was easiest path to an advanced degree.

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massivemissive (Nov 14, 2017 - 12:33 pm)

I'll take a PhD in chem or math teaching my kids over these master degrees in education any day.

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patenttrollnj (Nov 20, 2017 - 1:47 am)

A PhD in math teaching high school? LOL ... That may be a bit overkill.

The students would be terrified. Math gets crazy beyond calculus.

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wutwutwut (Nov 14, 2017 - 1:24 pm)

"Teachers should have an aura of expertise in the eyes of students, and the "Dr." provides that."

One of my kids is taking culinary arts and the students are required to always refer to the teacher as "Chef Carter".

I do think she completed a culinary program like CIA in NYC or some such, though. So I guess she's earned it.

I always thought it was a bit arrogant, though, for those with a doctorate in education studies to insist that they always be called "Doctor".

Perhaps unfairly, I don't think I'd feel the same about a PhD chemist or PhD physicist teacher, though. I guess I view them as more "real" degrees than the education doctorates. (Also maybe unfairly)

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superttthero (Nov 14, 2017 - 1:34 pm)

I'm with you.

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therewillbeblood (Nov 14, 2017 - 2:25 pm)

Anyone -- MD, PhD, JD, DNP, etc. -- who insists on being called "Dr." outside VERY limited situations is arrogant.

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superttthero (Nov 14, 2017 - 4:10 pm)

I don't disagree, but there are zero circumstances where a JD should be insist on being called "Dr." outside of tormenting people that are trying to get a Ph.D. and it is taking them around a decade to do so.

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patenttrollnj (Nov 20, 2017 - 1:34 am)

Let's put it this way: the English PhD is still at an advantage over a lawyer. They, at least, can get hired teaching in high school, whereas a lawyer would need to go back and get certified.

Also, the English PhD may have a side job, such as an adjunct at a college.

These academic appointments are hard to get, thus teaching high school may be a steady (and rewarding) alternative. Plus, depending on the state, it may not be that bad of a paying job either.

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legalace (Nov 14, 2017 - 3:04 pm)

"Juris Doctorate" is indeed incorrect. That phrase is an unfortunate mixture of the Latin word "juris" and the English language word "doctorate."

Some law schools award the Doctor of Jurisprudence rather than the Juris Doctor.

It is long past time to retire the term "law degree." It was a product of lawyer embarrassment at being awarded a second bachelor's degree after seven years of higher education. The J.D. has been awarded by all law schools since 1971.


Nobody refers to the D.D.S., D.M.D., D.O., D.P.M., D.V.M., M.D., or O.D. as pretentious. Why pick on the J.D.?

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therewillbeblood (Nov 14, 2017 - 5:41 pm)

"Nobody refers to the D.D.S., D.M.D., D.O., D.P.M., D.V.M., M.D., or O.D. as pretentious"

Incorrect.

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toooldtocare (Nov 14, 2017 - 5:30 pm)

The JD: the red headed stepchild of the academic world.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2013/03/professional-titles

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wutwutwut (Nov 14, 2017 - 6:36 pm)

Comments section of that post is gold, man. Thanks!

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loblawyer (Nov 14, 2017 - 6:39 pm)

Totally deserved given the ABA has allowed law school admission standards to be reduced to laughable levels.

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tacocheese (Nov 14, 2017 - 6:34 pm)

How often do you see lawyers call themselves "Esquire"? Too often.

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legalace (Nov 14, 2017 - 7:34 pm)

I have never understood the notion that accountants, dentists, ministers, optometrists, osteopaths, pharmacists, physical therapists, physicians, podiatrists, registered nurses, school administrators, and veterinarians should all use degrees or other abbreviated designations after their names, but lawyers should not.

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toooldtocare (Nov 14, 2017 - 8:30 pm)

No question the initials business has gotten out of control. Saw a brochure recently for a medical coders' conference, where you too can learn the ins and outs of the exciting world of medical coding/medical billing. One of the presenters had 24-that's right, two score-initials after her name.

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dogdaypm (Nov 15, 2017 - 7:26 am)

and here I've always thought 2 score = 40.

😁

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toooldtocare (Nov 15, 2017 - 9:29 am)

That's why I went to law school. A math talent like mine comes along once a decade-that's 20 years, right?

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therewillbeblood (Nov 15, 2017 - 10:40 am)

I think everyone should do those things lightly. It makes sense in certain circumstances -- like I'll throw "Esq." after my name when I'm writing to dispute a charge or something where knowing I'm a lawyer might make them treat me better. But some people go overboard where they use it in social situations which is silly.

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lolwutjobs (Nov 14, 2017 - 7:57 pm)

I do enjoy when I see people using JD after their name on Facebook or LinkedIn.

John Smith, JD

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dogdaypm (Nov 15, 2017 - 7:28 am)

Most of the people I see doing that are unbarred lawgrads.

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bucwild (Nov 15, 2017 - 9:51 am)

The only people I see doing that are the ones you described.

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therewillbeblood (Nov 22, 2017 - 2:44 pm)

Ha, I'm the one who started this post and find that kind of thing pretentious, but I will admit I do that every once in a while I'll put JD after my name if I'm also using my PhD after my name (which I only do in very limited situations and only when I think I will receive some concrete non-ego-storking benefit from doing so). Therewillbeblood, Esq., Ph.D. sounds even more ridiculous than Therewillbeblood, J.D., Ph.D.

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legalace (Nov 14, 2017 - 8:13 pm)

Esquire or Esq. are traditionally used in addressing correspondence to a lawyer. They are not traditionally used in referring to oneself. It is time to retire this archaic title. It was probably a byproduct of lawyer embarrassment at being awarded a second bachelor's degree after seven years of higher education.

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dingbat (Nov 15, 2017 - 7:41 am)

Historically, Esquire was a title indicating the lesser son of a nobleman - i.e. the one who didn't inherit, and therefore had to take on some sort of profession. Back in the olden days, the vast majority of the legal profession was made up of these lesser preps. Slowly, non-noble attorneys with penis envy started calling themselves esquire too.

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nighthawk (Nov 15, 2017 - 1:44 pm)

It's unfortunate with the implosion of the legal world how people who have significant education become small firm PI and divorce lawyers. You see the law office of Alfred E. Wigginton III, LCSW, MSW, MD, PhD, Esq. handling divorce cases.

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wutwutwut (Nov 15, 2017 - 2:08 pm)

I know that dude - his name's actually "E. Alfred Wigginton, III".

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therewillbeblood (Nov 15, 2017 - 2:26 pm)

"Attorney and Counsellor-at-Law"

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onehell (Nov 15, 2017 - 3:36 pm)

Although it's not the original topic of the OP, the thread devolved into the typical debate about use of the doctor title, so I'll mention this:

The ABA once put out statement of policy saying that a JD should be treated as equivalent to a Ph.D. for purposes of academic appointment because although the PhD requires a dissertation and a law degree does not, a law degree requires typically requires 30 more course credits and therefore the two should be equivalent:

http://apps.americanbar.org/legaled/accreditation/Council%20Statements.pdf

"WHEREAS, the acquisition of a Doctor of Jurisprudence degree requires from 84 to 90 semester hours of post baccalaureate study and the Doctor of Philosophy degree usually requires 60 semester hours of post baccalaureate study along with
the writing of a dissertation, the two degrees shall be considered as equivalent degrees for educational employment purposes;
THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that all appropriate persons be requested to eliminate any policy, or practice, existing within their jurisdiction which disparages legal education or promotes discriminatory employment practices against J.D. degree-holders who hold academic appointment in education institutions."

Personally, I think it is questionable to say that a dissertation is an equivalent amount of effort to 30 graduate credits, since a dissertation contributes something new to the field and merely acquiring credits does not, but nonetheless, I think it would be defensible under this ABA statement for a professor with a JD to use the doctor title in connection with his or her academic activities, even though doing so is pretty damn pompous. Using it in any other context though, especially private practice, has serious potential to mislead clients and should be banned.

The Esq. title is also stupid, as it is really just a generalized title of respect originating with the landed gentry which was somehow appropriated by lawyers, and in addition it is a title which others are supposed to use to refer to you, not a title by which you are supposed to refer to yourself.

If admitted to the bar, you call yourself attorney. If not admitted and active in at least one jurisdiction, you MIGHT be able to put just JD after your name, but only if doing so does not have any realistic potential of misleading anyone.

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therewillbeblood (Nov 15, 2017 - 3:56 pm)

I always thought it was kind of hilarious that the ABA did that; "We, a bunch of JDs, find that the JD is totally as good as any other doctorate, and the holder can call themselves doctor."

As someone who did a PhD and a JD (and separately, not as a joint program), I can assure the ABA and anyone reading this that a dissertation is a hell of a lot more work than 30 credits worth of classes. I would have traded in a heartbeat the writing of my dissertation for just two semesters worth of courses.

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wutwutwut (Nov 15, 2017 - 5:18 pm)

"dissertation is a hell of a lot more work than 30 credits worth of classes"

Especially given the appropriate 30 credit hours for comparison are those of the 3L year. I was already working 60+ hpw by then, got >90% in all classes and racked up 3 more CALIs.

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legalace (Nov 15, 2017 - 4:06 pm)

The relevant question is not whether the J.D. is the equivalent of the Ph.D. or other academic doctors' degrees. The relevant question is, it it the equivalent of other professional doctors' degrees such as the D.D.S., D.M.D., D.O., D.P.M., D. Pharm., D.V.M., M.D., or O.D.

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onehell (Nov 15, 2017 - 7:07 pm)

Well the ABA position seems to be that use of the title by JDs in an academic context is permissible, whereas use of it in professional practice is potentially misleading and therefore ethically questionable.

As an aside, NPs/PAs with doctorates and pharmacists are probably using the title misleadingly and the relevant authorities should probably crack down on it. Vets are prolly OK, as they are doing everything a doctor normally does except with animals. If anything their job is harder since the animal can't tell them what's wrong, and they have to do surgery and everything else without necessarily specializing.

Personally, I think a vet would be a very handy person to have if stranded on a desert island. We're mammals too, and we might want to think about letting them treat humans on a limited basis in areas where shortages are particularly acute:

https://www.avma.org/public/Health/Pages/you-want-a-veterinarian-on-your-team-in-a-zombie-apocalypse.aspx

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qdllc (Nov 19, 2017 - 8:33 am)

Vets are better. They learn how to diagnose and treat a patient who can’t tell them where they hurt. ;)

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anothernjlawyer (Nov 15, 2017 - 5:08 pm)

Get ordained online. Make everyone call you "Reverend." Best prefix ever.

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onehell (Nov 15, 2017 - 7:06 pm)

People with doctorates in theology definitely use the doctor title. The Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King, for example.

Fortunately, MLK had a doctorate from a real university. But since the constitution prohibits the government from regulating religious instruction if the institution is willing to forego federal funding and student loans, there are lots of unaccredited religious "colleges" churning out doctoral "degrees" left and right. Some of the most egregious abuses of the doctor title I have ever seen have been by pastors in strip-mall churches throughout middle America. And a lot of them are essentially practicing every discipline imaginable and being complete quacks at it. They believe in things like prayer curing disease (practice of medicine), they often get in the way of lawyers (e.g. by demanding legal separation instead of divorce), they practice psychotherapy (confession and counseling), and they do it all with an appeal to an authority which they claim is higher than any human law. And on top of all that, their churches are automatically tax-exempt. And any idiot can rent a strip mall location, hang a cross on the wall and call themselves a pastor, and the parishioners trust them implicitly. It's downright dangerous.

Trump University should have just called itself a church and said real estate flipping is ordained by God or something.

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wolfman (Nov 15, 2017 - 8:40 pm)

hmmm, psychotherapy?... yeah, I heard of pastoral counseling... so one could be the Rev. Dr. Karl Wolfmann, Esq. and off to the races... the funny thing is, I think some of us'd be much better at it than lots of LCSWs (who are quacks as well)... am I wrong in thinking this stuff largely flies in the Bible Belt and not so much elsewhere?

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onehell (Nov 16, 2017 - 11:39 am)

It's everywhere, but definitely more common in the bible belt. Personally, I've never understood how anyone could go to a church in a strip mall and think it's legit, but it's quite common there, particularly in more rural areas.

I actually know a guy who set one of these up. He was one of the well-intentioned ones but he was pretty dumb and probably shouldn't have been teaching anyone anything, much less something that would affect so many major life decisions as religion does for people. His church was just an empty strip mall space with a cross on the wall and rows of plastic chairs from Walmart and a cheap PA system. No education besides a GED and a "doctorate" from some unaccredited diploma mill that awarded it in significant part based on "life experience." These private Christian "schools" have websites that usually prominently and proudly display why the constitutional ban on governmental interference with the free exercise of religion keeps them totally unregulated. There's no financial aid and no real school would accept the credits, but for supplying the strip mall church industry with fake credentials there is no shortage of options.

He started in an area like you're thinking of and did pretty well raking in donations and fees for officiating weddings. The city mayor even started having him give opening prayers for city council (they don't like separation of church and state in those parts) and the jail would have him come in to preach to inmates. The community definitely saw him as a legit pastor even though he just basically decided to just up and start doing it one day. But then his wife made him move to a coastal area. He tried the same thing again but couldn't get hardly any parishioners and therefore no "donations." His wife then forced him to close the church and get a job. He works for some HVAC company now, probably 1099 or under the table.

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therewillbeblood (Nov 15, 2017 - 8:57 pm)

I think that theologians were the first people in history who got the Doctor title, but I could be wrong.

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patenttrollnj (Nov 20, 2017 - 2:16 am)

Theology is an academic discipline. Thus, a Doctor of Theology is NOT religious instruction, but rather a research/academic type degree.

The degree people get to become preachers and/or religious leaders is the "Doctor of Divinity".

Martin Luther King obtained Doctor of Theology at Boston University, thus he was an actual PhD--in other words, the "Dr." used when addressing his was not because he was a preacher, but rather because he was an academic.

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legalace (Nov 16, 2017 - 10:44 am)

"The first academic degrees were all law degrees-and the first law degrees were doctorates. The foundations of the first universities in Europe were the glossators of the 11th century, which were schools of law... The first European university, that of Bologna, was founded as a school of law ... It is from this history that it is said that the first academic title of doctor applied to scholars of law. The degree and title were not applied to scholars of other disciplines until the 13th century." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_degree

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notiers (Nov 18, 2017 - 9:56 am)

Is funny. I used to get a kick out of seeing Esq. after my name. 10 years deep - my secretary knows not to ever put esq next to my name on anything.

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qdllc (Nov 19, 2017 - 8:26 am)

FWIW, I’ve seen it done both ways even by law schools. I’m sure that lends to the confusion.

But, hey, you’re lucky to find someone who grasps the difference between “i.e.” and “e.g.”

One thing I can say is that it’s not hard to tell between a lawyer who majored in English or communications in undergrad as compared to one who did not.

Some days I feel like duct-taping my boss to his office chair and make him spend a day learning the proper use of a comma. (lol)

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nighthawk (Nov 22, 2017 - 1:40 pm)

Regarding the english/grammar discussion, the song "I want to wish you a merry Christmas" that goes around this time of year is very curious. Why are you telling me that you want to wish me one? Just wish me one "I wish you a..."

Juris Doctorate or Juris Doctor? Juris Doctor is correct though I prefer that it would be called Juris Doctorate because Juris Doctor can be easily confused with Lawn Doctor.

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