Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

Make the jd a phd?

Would weed out and force closure of most mill schools. esquire13811/24/17
They'd just churn out bad, semiliterate PhDs. therewillbeblood11/24/17
What real research needs to be done into the law? It'd be thirdtierlaw11/24/17
But according to the ABA the J.D. can call himself "Doctor" isthisit11/24/17
No, but they can properly be addressed as Doctor by others ( legalace11/24/17
"Dr. Isthisit, Esquire"? No, Dr. or Esquire are properly us legalace11/24/17
I agree, both shallow and pedantic 🤔. isthisit11/24/17
you can call a lawyer a doctor but he can't refer to himself gladigotaphdinstead11/27/17
You know who would love this idea? Schools. superttthero11/24/17
Why? They tend to be less credits and more selective on who esquire13811/24/17
I had to write an independent "research paper" in law school irishlaw11/24/17
Even medical students don't have to do Ph.D.-level research lazlo11/24/17
I learned as much evidence in trial ad as I did in evidence. lawlyer8211/24/17
Sounds good to me. First year should be the bar subjects, se isthisit11/24/17
They really should hav e made law a 2 year LLM. therewillbeblood11/24/17
There already is a version of a law degree equivalent to the specv31311/24/17
I checked out some JSD dissertations once out of curiousity. therewillbeblood11/24/17
700+ pages of legal "research" sounds like an absolute night isthisit11/25/17
Just find 20 law review articles and put them all together w irishlaw11/25/17
Or just pay a dissertation company online to do it for you. esquire13811/25/17
Offered without comment: https://law.unl.edu/jsd-space-la therewillbeblood11/24/17
What is the point of that? Pay $30k to write a book on space notreallyalawyer11/25/17
You may as well write a book on space law on your own time a isthisit11/25/17
I like how they straight up call it a book too. Classy. esquire13811/25/17
The PhD is not truly equivalent to the JSD because the JSD r legalace11/25/17
So the jsd is harder ? esquire13811/25/17
The lengthier course work means that the JSD takes longer, n legalace11/25/17
I'm kind of surprised the lower ranked lawschools don't all esquire13811/24/17
Yeah, you'd think Cooley would be all over that. St. Thomas therewillbeblood11/25/17
How appropriate !! BOTH degrees are falling short on pro patenttrollnj11/24/17
At least the PhD programs don't make up fake statistics to t therewillbeblood11/25/17
JD was sold to people as get rich quick scheme. Great PR to triplesix11/25/17
"[S]old to people as a get rich quick scheme"? Not true. Ac legalace11/25/17
I think she means recent marketing leading to the bubble. esquire13811/25/17
Lucky for the PhD pushers, it's a bit more difficult to coll patenttrollnj11/26/17
I've seen libarts PhDs. Can't be too hard. Not sure what th esquire13811/26/17
The STEM PhDs are generally not too hard either, especially patenttrollnj11/26/17
Baker online? esquire13811/26/17
PhD classes are not usually that hard; a lot of the core cou therewillbeblood11/26/17
I want a blow off prof then. esquire13811/26/17
You want an advisor who isn't micromanaging or giving you 5, therewillbeblood11/26/17
The spacelaw director looks 30 and kindahawt. esquire13811/25/17
Making it a PhD might work, but only if ABA were able to req onehell11/27/17
They'd justify charging the same total tuition that way to esquire13811/27/17
So you're saying that if tuition is, say, 40k a year right n onehell11/27/17
I doubt the lower ranked places would care. Especially the o esquire13811/27/17

esquire138 (Nov 24, 2017 - 12:35 pm)

Would weed out and force closure of most mill schools.

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therewillbeblood (Nov 24, 2017 - 1:33 pm)

They'd just churn out bad, semiliterate PhDs.

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thirdtierlaw (Nov 24, 2017 - 1:47 pm)

What real research needs to be done into the law?

It'd be a bigger waste of time than law review articles already are.

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isthisit (Nov 24, 2017 - 2:53 pm)

But according to the ABA the J.D. can call himself "Doctor" 🤔.

Dr. Isthisit, Esquire. First of his name, defender of New Jersey and first of the men free of debt.

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legalace (Nov 24, 2017 - 6:02 pm)

No, but they can properly be addressed as Doctor by others (just as dentists, ministers, optometrists, osteopaths, pharmacists, physicians, podiatrists, and veterinarians can).

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legalace (Nov 24, 2017 - 6:04 pm)

"Dr. Isthisit, Esquire"? No, Dr. or Esquire are properly used as a form of address, but not in referring to oneself.

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isthisit (Nov 24, 2017 - 6:11 pm)

I agree, both shallow and pedantic 🤔.

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gladigotaphdinstead (Nov 27, 2017 - 9:56 am)

you can call a lawyer a doctor but he can't refer to himself as one? #soconfused

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superttthero (Nov 24, 2017 - 3:38 pm)

You know who would love this idea? Schools.

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esquire138 (Nov 24, 2017 - 4:13 pm)

Why? They tend to be less credits and more selective on who the admitt.

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irishlaw (Nov 24, 2017 - 4:30 pm)

I had to write an independent "research paper" in law school. I compiled arguments from 3-4 law review articles and just put a cite after every sentence. That is was passes for research in law...its a joke.

...and its not as if the research I cited was much different.

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lazlo (Nov 24, 2017 - 5:46 pm)

Even medical students don't have to do Ph.D.-level research (though research experience is highly recommended). Original legal 'research'? LOL

Law school should be 2 years of class max, or if 3 years the third year should be all clerkship / externship / working / clinic. Doubt most law schools are willing or even able to have all their students enrolled in clinics, so make it 2 years. (EDIT: imposing a requirement on law schools that they have clinic spots for all students would be another way to weed out the toilets).

I wonder if you could even squeeze it down to 1 year:

Fall
- Contracts
- Property
- Torts
- Criminal law / Criminal procedure
- Legal writing I

Spring
- Civil procedure
- Constitutional law
- Evidence
- Legal ethics
- Legal writing II

Even I think that's cutting it pretty barebones. Maybe have a summer of classes as well, for a total of 3 semesters.

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lawlyer82 (Nov 24, 2017 - 6:46 pm)

I learned as much evidence in trial ad as I did in evidence.

1st year doctrinal
2nd year practical

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isthisit (Nov 24, 2017 - 8:47 pm)

Sounds good to me. First year should be the bar subjects, second year your practical specialty classes (Immigration Practice, Criminal Trial Advocacy, Landlord-Tenant, etc.), and third year your year long clinic or externship.

It could be trimmed down to 2 years but I think 3 gives you more time to ruin your liver and make lifelong friends/enemies in the profession.

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therewillbeblood (Nov 24, 2017 - 8:37 pm)

They really should hav e made law a 2 year LLM.

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specv313 (Nov 24, 2017 - 9:37 pm)

There already is a version of a law degree equivalent to the PhD. It's called the JSD. https://law.stanford.edu/education/degrees/advanced-degree-programs/doctor-of-science-of-law-jsd/

It's offered at a few law schools.

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therewillbeblood (Nov 24, 2017 - 9:59 pm)

I checked out some JSD dissertations once out of curiousity. They were kind of insanely long, stretching 700-900 pages (a standard PhD for a social .science is around 200-400 pages). Not sure or quality though.

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isthisit (Nov 25, 2017 - 8:43 am)

700+ pages of legal "research" sounds like an absolute nightmare.

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irishlaw (Nov 25, 2017 - 6:32 pm)

Just find 20 law review articles and put them all together with 1/2 the page being citations to those other articles.

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esquire138 (Nov 25, 2017 - 6:36 pm)

Or just pay a dissertation company online to do it for you. You just have to later read and defend.'

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therewillbeblood (Nov 24, 2017 - 10:02 pm)

Offered without comment:

https://law.unl.edu/jsd-space-law/

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notreallyalawyer (Nov 25, 2017 - 11:13 am)

What is the point of that? Pay $30k to write a book on space law?

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isthisit (Nov 25, 2017 - 1:11 pm)

You may as well write a book on space law on your own time and market yourself as an expert. There's no real research barrier that you can't get on your own without the university's backing. A personal Westlaw subscription is cheaper than tuition at this program.

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esquire138 (Nov 25, 2017 - 6:38 pm)

I like how they straight up call it a book too. Classy.

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legalace (Nov 25, 2017 - 12:59 pm)

The PhD is not truly equivalent to the JSD because the JSD requires far more coursework prior to the dissertation.

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esquire138 (Nov 25, 2017 - 2:03 pm)

So the jsd is harder ?

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legalace (Nov 25, 2017 - 7:59 pm)

The lengthier course work means that the JSD takes longer, not that is necessarily harder.

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esquire138 (Nov 24, 2017 - 9:42 pm)

I'm kind of surprised the lower ranked lawschools don't all do jsd for money.

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therewillbeblood (Nov 25, 2017 - 10:17 am)

Yeah, you'd think Cooley would be all over that. St. Thomas in Florida does have one, so you'd think the other unranked schools would as well.

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patenttrollnj (Nov 24, 2017 - 11:16 pm)

How appropriate !!

BOTH degrees are falling short on providing jobs for their graduates.

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therewillbeblood (Nov 25, 2017 - 11:26 am)

At least the PhD programs don't make up fake statistics to try and get people to go. And they typically pay the students.

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triplesix (Nov 25, 2017 - 11:48 am)

JD was sold to people as get rich quick scheme. Great PR to be honest with zero liability can do wonders.

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legalace (Nov 25, 2017 - 12:57 pm)

"[S]old to people as a get rich quick scheme"? Not true. Actually, other law schools understandably agreed with the University of Chicago that it made no sense to award a second bachelor's degree after seven years of higher education.

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esquire138 (Nov 25, 2017 - 2:04 pm)

I think she means recent marketing leading to the bubble.

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patenttrollnj (Nov 26, 2017 - 10:53 am)

Lucky for the PhD pushers, it's a bit more difficult to collect statistics for PhDs.

But yes, they are considerably more affordable that the law degree. That's for sure.

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esquire138 (Nov 26, 2017 - 12:27 pm)

I've seen libarts PhDs. Can't be too hard. Not sure what they'd be good for other than to teach that exact thesis topic and legally call yourself doctor though.

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patenttrollnj (Nov 26, 2017 - 1:13 pm)

The STEM PhDs are generally not too hard either, especially the biology related ones.

I started such a PhD before switching to law school (I stoped after obtaining a masters degree). I had a 4.0 GPA for 2 semesters. These classes aren't like the pre-med weed-out classes you take in undergraduate. The classes are often curved very generously.

Also, so many of these fields are glutted. I know many unemployed and under-employed PhDs, and these are all STEM PhDs.

Also, regarding the humanities PhDs, I really think the school you get your PhD from can make all the difference. A PhD in English from Harvard will get a good job because of the "Harvard" bit. Anecdotally, I went to an elite undergraduate school, and many of my classmates that studied the humanities actually did quite well. So, based on what I've seen, I really do think that the prestige of your school is what matters.

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esquire138 (Nov 26, 2017 - 3:12 pm)

Baker online?

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therewillbeblood (Nov 26, 2017 - 3:43 pm)

PhD classes are not usually that hard; a lot of the core courses are intended to make sure you're well-rounded in your discipline. The dissertation work itself can range from easy to ridiculously hard depending on the subject and your advisor.

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esquire138 (Nov 26, 2017 - 5:22 pm)

I want a blow off prof then.

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therewillbeblood (Nov 26, 2017 - 11:42 pm)

You want an advisor who isn't micromanaging or giving you 5,000,000 things to do every day, but also is making sure you'll graduate on time.

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esquire138 (Nov 25, 2017 - 2:18 pm)

The spacelaw director looks 30 and kindahawt.

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onehell (Nov 27, 2017 - 11:25 am)

Making it a PhD might work, but only if ABA were able to require that it be a true PhD (i.e. tuition waiver plus stipend). And in any event, requiring a dissertation would be hard to justify from an antitrust perspective, because it is hard to say that an original contribution to the field is necessary for a licensed, practicing professional as opposed to a would-be professor. If it can be proven that it serves no purpose other than to raise barriers to entry in order to restrict supply and thus increase wages, then you can bet the low-ranked schools will sue, not to mention a dept of ed and justice dept that is anything but hostile for for-profit schools right now.

The better solution is to eliminate the 3L year as many have called for. In fact, 2L could be eliminated too, though you might need to stretch it into the summer so there's at least some electives.

Law school as currently configured could easily be made into a one-year MA. As it is, everything beyond 1L other than ethics is an elective for accreditation purposes, and the bar pretty much only tests 1L subjects plus a few state-specific nuances that you learn in bar review. Give folks the summer after so they can take ethics and evidence and one other elective or something, and it'd be fine. If anything, it'd be easier for them to pass the bar because the 1L subjects would be fresher in their minds. Only downside is there'd be no time for internships and summer associateships, but most people don't really learn much in those anyway. Most internships outside of biglaw are unpaid public interest gigs of little relevance to what most grads will ultimately end up doing. And the biglaw summer associate gigs are mostly just a matter of getting paid to go to parties and events so they can make sure you're not completely socially inept or a drunk.

Bottom line is that the best way to cut costs (aside from limiting access to loans) is to simply limit the time you're in school, which cuts down on both tuition and living expenses.

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esquire138 (Nov 27, 2017 - 12:42 pm)

They'd justify charging the same total tuition that way to avoid profit loss even though that makes no sense since it frees up seats.

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onehell (Nov 27, 2017 - 2:01 pm)

So you're saying that if tuition is, say, 40k a year right now, and the school cut program duration to say, 2 years, then they would just increase tuition by 1/3rd to cover the shortfall?

They could do that. But even if they did, you'd still save on living expenses and on interest. And if they did do that, they probably wouldn't do it all at once. More likely, they'd have to make any increase gradual and mask it within "normal" tuition increases. If they just increased tuition overnight by exactly the amount they stood to lose, it would be a 33% increase overnight and it would risk bad PR and perhaps regulatory attention.

Sudden, drastic price hikes with no justification other than "because I can" tend to attract scrutiny. Call it the Shkreli Effect.

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esquire138 (Nov 27, 2017 - 3:46 pm)

I doubt the lower ranked places would care. Especially the ones with their own ranking systems.........

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