Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

Are unemployed/underemployed lawyers the lowest of the low?

I’ve seen people even advocate for and get work for felons notreallyalawyer12/26/17
Most sex offenders and other convicted felons are the lowest flyer1412/26/17
True, but the felons I know get work at some low-paying phys fettywap12/26/17
And us lawyerly undesirables also have an option to jump shi ugly12/26/17
Is it just the sheer numbers for us? I honestly think a paro notreallyalawyer12/26/17
My sister-in-law's son got a job delivering furniture for $1 fettywap12/26/17
But I’m not a felon and I’m a licensed attorney with mas notreallyalawyer12/26/17
Only by removing all traces of legal work/education from his cowgod12/26/17
This. A low-wage employer would be stupid to hire someone he onehell12/26/17
Doc review is not the practice of law. You people are kiddin fettywap12/26/17
You can spin it however you want, but what happens when some onehell12/26/17
Most jobs do not check your current employer for a reference fettywap12/26/17
Actually, employment verifications usually ask for 1. dates onehell12/26/17
You're a dysfunctional male just like the felons and the oth fettywap12/26/17
Yes. This has long been established. It's basically the foun cowgod12/26/17
Yes he's a troll. bucwild12/26/17
Notreallyalawyer, seriously man, at least give an attempt to kyiv12/26/17
I don't think competency is the issue for that poster. He's onehell12/26/17
I’ve had horrible experiences with anxiety and depression. kyiv12/26/17
I mean I achieved graduating college, law school, heck I was notreallyalawyer12/26/17
You can do something else. With IBR, debt is just a number. onehell12/26/17
I meant more in a financial sense. It’s possible once you kyiv12/26/17
I have just as much misery stories from solo's. It's really cocolawyer12/26/17
I get the positive message behind this post but 123fakestree loblawyer12/26/17
Exactly. Same reason why I don’t date. I’m horrible at s notreallyalawyer12/26/17
I do realize that 123fakestreet, newsolo, subprimejd, jeffm, kyiv12/26/17
Law firms do have an advantage in that they can be operated onehell12/26/17
Unfortunately this is true.. When people suggest stuff like, notreallyalawyer12/26/17
Notreallyalawyer needs to finally win at something, financia kyiv12/26/17
I’m arguing for OP trying. And the misery stories, from ev kyiv12/26/17
I think the problem is that law school is one of the riskies onehell12/27/17
Not all of us are liberal arts majors (I will admit that I m kyiv12/28/17
Oh yes, forgot to mention. If one truly has a risk-averse me kyiv12/28/17
“whining”- I hate my spellcheck. kyiv12/26/17
I don't see the problem. OP and his ilk want to be in the gr nighthawk12/26/17
Aren't you midlaw now? Well done getting there from doc revi loblawyer12/26/17
One employer asked "What is wrong with these people?" One o trijocker12/26/17
There is a book written like 3 years ago called The Scarlet cocolawyer12/26/17
Ive consolidated can I even do IBR? notreallyalawyer12/26/17
As long as your consolidation loan is still a federal loan, onehell12/27/17
My loans have been transferred so many times I don’t remem notreallyalawyer12/27/17
This thread is depressing and might even cause someone to co tedandlisa12312/27/17
Didn't you work seasonal at an amazon warehouse for a while? flyer1412/27/17
Oil and gas companies will hire someone with just a bachelor fettywap12/27/17

notreallyalawyer (Dec 26, 2017 - 8:53 am)

I’ve seen people even advocate for and get work for felons and sex offenders but nobody seems to care about the lowest lawyers. I’ve have a better chance of getting a job robbing and bank and someone wanting to rehabilitate or give me a chance at a legit job than I ever have of using my law degree.

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flyer14 (Dec 26, 2017 - 2:48 pm)

Most sex offenders and other convicted felons are the lowest Scumbags imaginable, perhaps even a Scumbag/Loser hybrid. Because of that Scumbag pedigree however, they will always find a way to eke out an existence at the margins of society, working temp day jobs landscaping, sorting trash, etc. Even if entirely homeless, the homeless population collecting cans on the side of the road are almost all Scumbags looking for their next fifth of the cheapest 80 proof they can find.

Most Lawyers are, however, Losers by pedigree, and Losers simply lose. Most Scumbag employers such as aircraft cargo loaders can immediately see a Loser from a mile off, knowing that Losers are Liberal Artists who were mentally conditioned to fear hard work all their lives, and because of that mental conditioning the Loser sucks at said hard work.

So the Loser doesn't get hired because the Loser didn't stay in his lane.

***

Direct quote:

18. Why Couldn’t I get the $11/hr. Airline Handler job I applied for?

Question: "I was rejected for an $11/hr airline baggage handler job today. After a short phone interview with an airline recruiter, the airline sent me an e-mail saying I didn't meet the "basic qualifications" of the job. What a bunch of bull. I met all the qualifications. I work out four times a week and can lift a lot more than 70 pounds. I made sure to write in my cover letter that (even though I graduated from Law School), I was done with law and wanted to work in the airline industry in a non-lawyer capacity. I also highlighted experience in physical labor, something I did years ago, and stressed that I was in the best shape of my life. Why didn't I get the jerb?"

Answer: She could obviously tell that you were not a member of the Scumbag Clique (which is the actual qualification needed to be an airport luggage handler) and were instead a cliqueless Loser trying to lateral into a decent Scumbag wage. STAY IN YOUR LANE. (Diarrheaboy, 9/15/13)

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fettywap (Dec 26, 2017 - 9:23 am)

True, but the felons I know get work at some low-paying physical labor job where they're treated like crap.

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ugly (Dec 26, 2017 - 9:34 am)

And us lawyerly undesirables also have an option to jump ship to a minimum wage job at any time. Well, some of us with IBR anyway.

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notreallyalawyer (Dec 26, 2017 - 10:00 am)

Is it just the sheer numbers for us? I honestly think a paroled murderer would get a pity job before I’m ever gainfully employed

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fettywap (Dec 26, 2017 - 10:18 am)

My sister-in-law's son got a job delivering furniture for $10 an hour after he got out of prison. I promise you could get that job too.

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notreallyalawyer (Dec 26, 2017 - 10:31 am)

But I’m not a felon and I’m a licensed attorney with massive debt .

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cowgod (Dec 26, 2017 - 10:37 am)

Only by removing all traces of legal work/education from his resume. You are delusional if you think someone would hire a known lawyer for that kind of work.

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onehell (Dec 26, 2017 - 11:50 am)

This. A low-wage employer would be stupid to hire someone he knows to have legal background. There'd be a suspicion, not entirely unfounded, that such a person might be looking for wage & hour, EEO or OSHA violations, trolling his coworkers for workers comp clients, or might even start a campaign to unionize if it's a bigger employer like a walmart or something.

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fettywap (Dec 26, 2017 - 12:15 pm)

Doc review is not the practice of law. You people are kidding yourselves if you think it is. It should be pretty easy to conceal that from a non-legal employer. And no, the little business man does not suspect everyone is out to get him, or that they would have any reason to go after him.

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onehell (Dec 26, 2017 - 1:14 pm)

You can spin it however you want, but what happens when someone calls for a reference? Literally everyone involved has an incentive to say you were practicing.

The doc review outfits want it to be the practice of law because it keeps the temps FLSA exempt so there's no OT. The law firms also want the FLSA exemption, plus they get the added bonus of being able to bill the reviewer's time to the client at an attorney rate which is, after all, a law firm's entire business model (buy attorney time at wholesale price and sell it at retail price). The reviewers usually want it to be practice of law for reciprocity purposes or because they're still holding out hope for a real law job. Even the state bar benefits because people who have to keep their licenses active pay higher dues and have to take CLEs and stuff.

When you consider how all the parties involved are usually incentivized to spin doc review, it becomes pretty hard to spin it as something other than the practice of law and certainly not a job that helps you conceal the JD scarlet letter.

This has nothing to do with the actual job duties themselves, which I agree with you are more like paralegal work at best. But money talks. Saying it requires a license is in the financial interests of the powers that be. This fact overrides almost everything else, as it does in most of society.

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fettywap (Dec 26, 2017 - 2:00 pm)

Most jobs do not check your current employer for a reference. There's usually a box to check on the application that they cannot contact your employer. If they do, the employer will usually only give dates of employment. They're not going to give a detailed reference for some doc reviewer they don't really know.

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onehell (Dec 26, 2017 - 2:16 pm)

Actually, employment verifications usually ask for 1. dates of employment 2. job title, and they will see if they can get away with a request for 3. salary and 4. "eligibility for rehire," which is a roundabout way of asking if you were fired for cause. We would usually answer the first two questions. Our policy would allow us to answer the second two only if the employee had signed a form specifically releasing us from liability for slander and such.

The problem is that with a review outfit your title is going to have been "contract attorney" or something like that. So even just verifying title and dates of employment will unravel the ruse.

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fettywap (Dec 26, 2017 - 10:33 am)

You're a dysfunctional male just like the felons and the other men who work those jobs.

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cowgod (Dec 26, 2017 - 10:38 am)

Yes. This has long been established. It's basically the founding premise of this site, ffs.

edit: OP is a troll, isn't he? Dammit.

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bucwild (Dec 26, 2017 - 12:11 pm)

Yes he's a troll.

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kyiv (Dec 26, 2017 - 10:45 am)

Notreallyalawyer, seriously man, at least give an attempt to starting a widely-marketing solo practice. I know that you’ve posted that you don’t have the skills to become a solo- yet, surely you can get CLEs, practice guides, and some sort of mentorship with professional organizations. Frankly I’m getting a bit tired of seeing these wining posts. Look at 123fakestreet- he went solo right out of law school and today has a business of $750K revenue, with a $600K EBIT (the net profit margin before taxes). Sure, he’s written on here many times that the first 2 years were tough for him- but when he started advertising in year 3, his practice took off. And you’ll probably say that you don’t have the necessary skills to run a business. They’re not that hard to learn- far easier than learning Civ Pro back in 1L.
There are plenty of resources and books online.

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onehell (Dec 26, 2017 - 11:58 am)

I don't think competency is the issue for that poster. He's been pretty clear in those other posts that he has a lot of social anxiety. You really need the gift of gab to go solo, IMHO. It requires salesmanship, not just competence. Coffee is for closers.

Frankly, what he should do is go back to school and train for something else, something more amenable to his introversion, like a coding bootcamp for example.

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kyiv (Dec 26, 2017 - 12:16 pm)

I’ve had horrible experiences with anxiety and depression. In my experience, the only way to snap out of them is to finally achieve something. Have at least one significant achievement in life, preferably in one’s chosen field. That way, all of one’s depression, anxiety, etc. will be shown that the sufferer is above them. And, as a lawyer who feels that he is at the bottom, I feel that he needs to make one last serious attempt at a successful legal career before completely getting out of it.

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notreallyalawyer (Dec 26, 2017 - 12:32 pm)

I mean I achieved graduating college, law school, heck I was an articles editor on my law review and I’m even published. Hadn’t helped my anxiety if fact it only gets worse as I get older. I don’t want to be a lawyer. I feel sick even being around lawyers. I just wish I could do something else

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onehell (Dec 26, 2017 - 1:33 pm)

You can do something else. With IBR, debt is just a number. Go to a coding boot camp if you want to get back on the market quick. Or, go back to real college and get into business, finance, healthcare or comp sci. These are growing fields. The law (outside of biglaw) is dying and you like most of your classmates were misled about that. This is not your fault.

In fact, I kinda envy you. I hate lawyering too, but I've got the "golden handcuffs" that make it so that anything else I might do would represent a massive pay cut. If you've got nothing to lose, then you have everything to gain.

Remember that the sunk-cost fallacy is just that: A fallacy. You should not consider yourself stuck in law just because you invested so much time and money into it; that's just throwing good money (and time) after bad. You can start over doing something else and the sooner you do, the better. Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

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kyiv (Dec 26, 2017 - 2:34 pm)

I meant more in a financial sense. It’s possible once you get on it. Just try, man. Newsolo graduated from a T4, at the bottom of his class, per his own admission. Did he mope about his lot in life? No, he built a $250K revenue bankruptcy business. I’ve already mentioned 123fakestreet. Subrpimejd had to live with his abusive mother, and go through a damaging divorce, as well as deal with a 2-year lack of a legal job. Now he has a six-figure personal injury practice. He could probably be making more than he does now, except he “really values his free time”, per his own admission in his blog (I used to read it often when it was active). Jeffm has a six-figure legal practice, while working less than even a law school administrator works at my former law school. There are plenty of stories on this website of people who achieved greatness, while coming from situations where the odds seemed against them.

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cocolawyer (Dec 26, 2017 - 6:23 pm)

I have just as much misery stories from solo's. It's really hit and miss or everyone would do it. When you kill it you kill it. Most solo's do not kill it though.

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loblawyer (Dec 26, 2017 - 1:15 pm)

I get the positive message behind this post but 123fakestreet's results are far from typical. Most solos, like restaurants or other small businesses, struggle or fail. I do agree at least trying it is better than what OP is presently doing, but to expect that type of success is delusional for most.

I agree with the above that you have to be able to sell to make it as a solo (or a partner). Most cannot or do not want to do that. If you can sell, you sure as hell do not need to go to law school. If you can't sell, you work for those that can.

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notreallyalawyer (Dec 26, 2017 - 1:35 pm)

Exactly. Same reason why I don’t date. I’m horrible at selling even myself. Some people are horrible it it and hence why me going solo but surely be a disaster

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kyiv (Dec 26, 2017 - 2:57 pm)

I do realize that 123fakestreet, newsolo, subprimejd, jeffm, and immigrationsolo (forgot to mention him) all have experiences which are not the case for all solos. And, I do realize that having basic selling skills is a must. But, I’ve witnessed that most solos/small firm partners try to run their businesses purely as lawyers, instead of being a lawyer for the legal factors, while running the business as a business person. I believe that basic selling, marketing, and management skills can be learned, and should be used by every solo/partner. But, if a lawyer truly believes that the legal field is closed for him/her, I will always maintain that the lawyer must first try the mass-marketing solo route before shutting the door on the legal field. If that doesn’t work out, whatever, there’s always “Hot Dogs Saved My Life”, or an option to pursue a degree in an in-demand field, as others have pointed out.

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onehell (Dec 26, 2017 - 7:02 pm)

Law firms do have an advantage in that they can be operated on much lower overhead than the restaurants and such. All you need is a computer with internet, office software, printer/scanner, a phone, operating and trust accounts, some kind of private meeting space and maybe a website and professional-sounding email address.

It's true that most small businesses fail and law firms are no exception. However, a restaurant fails and its owners are bankrupt. A law firm fails and all you really need to do is get out of an office lease, withdraw from any pending cases and turn the files over to the clients.

So there's something to be said for taking the risk. But not for the poster here; he has no entrepreneurial bent whatsoever, and trying to encourage him to go solo will only cause him further depression and anxiety.

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notreallyalawyer (Dec 26, 2017 - 7:05 pm)

Unfortunately this is true.. When people suggest stuff like, or or the equivalent, going into sales, I am overcome with feelings of hopelessness. Also stuff like "be fine with making minimum wage" does a similar thing, though I know I could do that. I would just be ruined.

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kyiv (Dec 26, 2017 - 9:39 pm)

Notreallyalawyer needs to finally win at something, financially, in life in order for his problems to have a real chance of going away. What I am arguing is that he gives a try to something very possible.

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kyiv (Dec 26, 2017 - 9:46 pm)

I’m arguing for OP trying. And the misery stories, from every case study that I’ve ever seen, occur from lawyers trying to run their businesses as lawyers, instead of as businesspeople. Of course not every solo is guaranteed success 100%, but, I still maintain that every solo should at least try to run a business as a businessperson. And, in terms of pursuing other avenues for those able to sell- few industries match the ROI on marketing, and the net profit margins, that a solo/small firm practice can bring.

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onehell (Dec 27, 2017 - 3:07 pm)

I think the problem is that law school is one of the riskiest investment you can possibly make if the school is not highly ranked, but one which is nonetheless marketed to the most risk-averse people on the planet. These people take easy majors because they cannot stomach the possibility of a low GPA, and they go to law school because they can't deal with the prospect of graduating without the next thing immediately lined up. Then they spend three years learning about all the terrible things that can happen when risks are taken and telling them they don't need practical skills because they will pick those up at a law firm. Experienced lawyers tell em they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and that hanging a shingle is practically guaranteed malpractice. Then they graduate unemployed and are expected to be swashbuckling entrepeneurs with a voracious appetite for risk?

Absurd. This profession is marketed to people who just can't see any other way to turn liberal artistry into a steady middle class paycheck. They have neither the competence nor the inherent personality traits needed to go out on their own, and it is folly to demand that they develop them now. The competence you can acquire, the fundamental personality traits of entrepreneurial salesmanship you cannot. Used car salesmen are born, not taught.

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kyiv (Dec 28, 2017 - 12:49 am)

Not all of us are liberal arts majors (I will admit that I majored in a STEM field). Nevertheless, in life one has to get out of one’s comfort zone. And that is especially important for liberal arts majors. Was law school a horrible experience that wasn’t worth the money it cost? Of course it was. Yet, I will maintain, as I’ve written multiple times, that before one closes the door on the legal field for good, one must attempt to milk the law degree as much as possible, by being an entrepreneur in law. Have problems with risk avoidance in terms of legal entrepreneurship? That’s what Grant Cardone and Gary Vaynerchuk are for. 30-50 of their videos, and the mentality of risk avoidance for starting one’s own business will be gone. “Rich Dad, Poor Dad” helps with that as well. Can’t sell? That’s what the works, and seminars, of Dale Carnegie are for. Also, not every (if any) legal selling is “used car selling”, as alluded to. Lawyers have legitimate products, for legitimate demand, which can be sold without shady tactics. Mills may be an exception- although PI Mills do sell legitimate products for small claims- yet, most law firms are not mills. Don’t know how to market? Lee Rosen’s podcasts and articles are perfect for that (also, he will teach you how to sell as well). Don’t know how to manage? I’ve noticed that the vast majority of attorneys I’ve known in real life have an obsession with micro managing everything possible. There are plenty of books on how to get out of that mentality, and develop genuine management skills. Problems with lack of experience? Every successful solo and small firm attorney I’ve ever known in real life, who went solo straight out of law school, had a mentor helping them learn their field. And no, they didn’t acquire mentors through family connections; they hustled for them. That is especially true amongst my ethnic group- they were all first generation U.S. attorneys, meaning that they didn’t have family connections to get them a legal mentor, so they hustled tenaciously for someone to mentor them in their fields.

Is every solo attorney guaranteed success, even with the resources I’ve mentioned? Of course not. Nevertheless, pursuing a genuine effort of trying, of bettering oneself, and of hustling for success before giving up for good on a field one spent years pursuing, is still better than having a defeatist mentality. Especially when that field has better marketing ROI, and higher net profit margins, than the vast majority of industries in existence.

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kyiv (Dec 28, 2017 - 1:02 am)

Oh yes, forgot to mention. If one truly has a risk-averse mentality to one’s life decisions, I dare that person to read Robert Kiyoaski’s “Why ‘A’ Students Work for ‘C’ Students and ‘B’ Students Work for the Government”. I truly dare that person to give that book one genuine read. That book is perfectly designed to destroy such a mentality to one’s own life decisions, especially when it comes to being an entrepreneur. And yes, that book is far more interesting to read than pretty much any text we have had to read in law school.

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kyiv (Dec 26, 2017 - 3:07 pm)

“whining”- I hate my spellcheck.

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nighthawk (Dec 26, 2017 - 10:47 am)

I don't see the problem. OP and his ilk want to be in the grimy basement doing doc review and then complain about it later. People tried to help you, the same as they tried helping felons, but that is a different story...

I did doc review for a short time and absolutely hated it. The work, the conditions, the people. If that cannot fire you up to get out of doc review then nothing will, even some social worker who is employed by the parole board to help felons integrate into the workforce.

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loblawyer (Dec 26, 2017 - 1:11 pm)

Aren't you midlaw now? Well done getting there from doc review, that's a unicorn story.

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trijocker (Dec 26, 2017 - 12:25 pm)

One employer asked "What is wrong with these people?"
One of the only doc reviews I worked was a study run on site by the firms HR person in conjunction with some Special Counsel rep that loosely "managed" the work. The young attorney always praised us for being selected as being one out of only four selected for the joy of working the project. Almost all were bar admitted and from good schools and had not worked for several years at a time prior the study as they were holding out for legal work. The man from the company kept asking what was wrong with them and why they were just sitting around for years, rather than just taking any type job.
Lawyers are often hated by the public and an unemployed lawyer is even considered worse, lower than low.

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cocolawyer (Dec 26, 2017 - 5:05 pm)

There is a book written like 3 years ago called The Scarlet Letter:JD. It's true. You are instantly more qualified for almost any 4 year degree you take, well non-stem careers.

You also have the most risk. You know the law and will be more likely to sue based on it. HR knows that too. There is also a bad perception that if you take a non-legal job you either are burnt out or you are going to continue to look for a better paying attorney position.

Everyone hates lawyers...so its not a shocker why you are the lowest of the low if you are an unemployed lawyer. You are poor and hated.

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notreallyalawyer (Dec 26, 2017 - 6:06 pm)

Ive consolidated can I even do IBR?

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onehell (Dec 27, 2017 - 3:15 pm)

As long as your consolidation loan is still a federal loan, yes. In fact it is the preferred approach and is required if you were to ever get a PSLF-eligible job.

Basically, you can and should do IBR unless you consolidated with one of those SoFi type places.

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notreallyalawyer (Dec 27, 2017 - 3:18 pm)

My loans have been transferred so many times I don’t remember SHO I did it with

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tedandlisa123 (Dec 27, 2017 - 7:21 am)

This thread is depressing and might even cause someone to commit suicide. Yes, a BA is better than a JD, but I haven’t gotten a lot of low wage work with a JD.

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flyer14 (Dec 27, 2017 - 9:30 am)

Didn't you work seasonal at an amazon warehouse for a while?

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fettywap (Dec 27, 2017 - 9:28 am)

Oil and gas companies will hire someone with just a bachelor's degree and no skills. Also, insurance claims or insurance adjusters just need a degree.

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