Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

Doc review vs. minimum wage

So I've looked, and NC is considering raising minimum wage t notreallyalawyer12/29/17
"If you figure in the costs of your education, ... Can you h phillydoucherocket12/30/17
I've never seen anything drive up doc review wages, in the D notreallyalawyer12/29/17
I think you are correct in thinking that local minimum wage wutwutwut12/29/17
If doc review lasts long enough it will be a minimum wage jo notreallyalawyer12/29/17
We can continue to hope for the latter before the former com wutwutwut12/29/17
Not holding my breath, though. wutwutwut12/29/17
Most Lawyers are Losers and would likely fail at even suicid flyer1412/30/17
But do what to pay bills? There’s only so many people the notreallyalawyer12/30/17
Most lawyers never do doc review. When I finished law school downwardslope12/30/17
Well the offer I accepted is a paralegal job so I guess i ne notreallyalawyer12/30/17
How is the air inside that bubble of yours? jdcumlaude12/30/17
Exactly! Big air bubble for sure. Doc review existed well nyclawyer12/31/17
" Many of them have since moved onto actual attorney positi aknas12/31/17
Whatever it takes. If not doc review then compliance, a para flyer1401/03/18
How does one get a compliance job? notreallyalawyer01/03/18
Apply for it, I presume. I'd have to ask, but I remember at flyer1401/03/18
I seem to recall from the ones I applied for they listed spe notreallyalawyer01/03/18
https://www.indeed.com/q-Entry-Leve l-Compliance-Officer-jobs flyer1401/03/18
Very few are compliance jobs and the first one I saw that wa notreallyalawyer01/03/18
So I didn’t have the time or energy to examine it more clo flyer1401/03/18
Hence why you have a job. So many people hear, "it's an extr thirdtierlaw01/04/18
You wrote: "Anything beats sitting there and doing nothing w nighthawk01/03/18
> Many of them have since moved onto actual attorney positi bittersweet01/02/18
People shouldn't base their own self-esteem by the degree to onehell01/04/18
I’ve worked at fast food, cvs, giant food. If those jobs p notreallyalawyer01/04/18
"I am a contract attorney, currently assigned to ropes & gra onehell01/04/18
At best they’ll confuse You for a real lawyer and not cons notreallyalawyer01/04/18
People who know what doc review is won’t hire you because tedandlisa12301/04/18
Exactly notreallyalawyer01/04/18
So you be a fry cook. And then leverage your degree and busi flyer1401/04/18
A shift manager makes in the 20s for 60 hour weeks. Making y onehell01/04/18
What's more remote. 1) A doc reviewer who believes he wil flyer1401/04/18
2 is more remote. A doc reviewer can hang a shingle, find a onehell01/04/18
I may have edited my post slightly for clarity so just make flyer1401/04/18
Yes, absolutely agree that many (and probably most) doc revi onehell01/04/18
Well, that calls into question any and all of our responses flyer1401/04/18
lol that's why I never pitch that hustle angle if they don't onehell01/04/18
Exactly right. I never tell people to hustle. The way to get wolfman01/04/18
Double Poast flyer1401/04/18
Although this is hardly representative, the CEO of McDonalds loblawyer01/04/18
But left for college and business school ? notreallyalawyer01/04/18
I don’t do English document review anymore. If no work is tedandlisa12301/04/18
I was never suicidally depressed when I worked retail but wh notreallyalawyer01/04/18
Based upon your Poasts you are a Scumbag and that's actually flyer1401/04/18
Going where??? My life sucks. I know felons who are better o notreallyalawyer01/04/18
That was directed at tedandlisa123, who is willing to engage flyer1401/04/18
Totally. I think it would do some of the doc reviewers that tedandlisa12301/04/18
Yeah, that may very well be true... When I was in doc re wolfman01/04/18
You should also become a chiropractor. Those guys believe th nighthawk01/09/18
You're right about the physical toll of doc review. Sitting bodog01/04/18
Doc review sucks, but it could be so much worse. Yes, the j bittersweet01/04/18
Keep in mind if min wage keeps rising doc review will be s m notreallyalawyer01/04/18
The one time I did any sort of doc review it's because a sol flyer1401/09/18

notreallyalawyer (Dec 29, 2017 - 7:10 pm)

So I've looked, and NC is considering raising minimum wage to $12/hr by 2020 and $15 by 2022. I've heard that doc review there pays around $23/hr. Do you think this would drive up doc review wages there, if doc review work still exists in 2022? If it doesn't. I imagine how depressing it would be to be making only 8 more an hour when you spent likely 100k plus on your education, probably more, and only make $8/hr more than jobs that don't even require a high school diploma. If you figure in the costs of your education, say it was $200k total, and you make $16,400 more a year than minimum wage workers, it would take 12 years (not even considering taxes, so even longer) for you to pay off your debt with that extra money. Can you honestly say it's better to get an education?

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phillydoucherocket (Dec 30, 2017 - 7:57 pm)

"If you figure in the costs of your education, ... Can you honestly say it's better to get an education?"

Isn't this statement the reason for this forum?

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notreallyalawyer (Dec 29, 2017 - 7:12 pm)

I've never seen anything drive up doc review wages, in the DC area it has always been $28-32 (a rare 34) since I've been doing this sh*t since 2003.. It doesn't go up. With inflation it has gone down a lot.

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wutwutwut (Dec 29, 2017 - 9:02 pm)

I think you are correct in thinking that local minimum wage increases are not likely to impact doc review rates, except to the extent that in general doing so increases inflation in a general sense.

I recognize that this goes against your observation that recently doc review rates have gone counter to inflation, but I'm guessing that's influenced more by other factors (glut of hapless JDs, decrease in bodies needed due to improvements in AI in doc review programming, etc.).

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notreallyalawyer (Dec 29, 2017 - 9:19 pm)

If doc review lasts long enough it will be a minimum wage job. If doc review ever ends there will be mass suicides and many law schools will close down

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wutwutwut (Dec 29, 2017 - 9:27 pm)

We can continue to hope for the latter before the former comes to pass.

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wutwutwut (Dec 29, 2017 - 9:27 pm)

Not holding my breath, though.

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flyer14 (Dec 30, 2017 - 4:05 am)

Most Lawyers are Losers and would likely fail at even suicide. It’s more likely that many doc reviewers will continue to wallow in their ignominy after the doc review work is automated or offshored.

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notreallyalawyer (Dec 30, 2017 - 7:10 am)

But do what to pay bills? There’s only so many people the BVA will hire

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downwardslope (Dec 30, 2017 - 10:25 am)

Most lawyers never do doc review. When I finished law school in 2009, doc review wasn’t even available. People found jobs as paralegals if they had to, which you won’t even do because it is below you. Many of them have since moved onto actual attorney positions by now because they were willing to suck it up and do what they needed to do to get jobs. I think it’s very rare that people make an actual career out of doc review. Most people I know who have done it did it for a year or two in between jobs.

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notreallyalawyer (Dec 30, 2017 - 11:18 am)

Well the offer I accepted is a paralegal job so I guess i never would do something like that right ?

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jdcumlaude (Dec 30, 2017 - 6:24 pm)

How is the air inside that bubble of yours?

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nyclawyer (Dec 31, 2017 - 3:33 pm)

Exactly! Big air bubble for sure. Doc review existed well before 2009, at least in major cities. I've met people who say they did doc review in the 90s back when it paid decently.

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aknas (Dec 31, 2017 - 10:33 am)

"
Many of them have since moved onto actual attorney positions by now because they were willing to suck it up and do what they needed to do to get jobs.

Question: just what is the "it" that were they sucking, and in what upwards direction?

I should give this theorem the old college try.

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flyer14 (Jan 3, 2018 - 11:18 am)

Whatever it takes. If not doc review then compliance, a paralegal job, a staff attorney position, or get into contracting. Or something. Anything beats sitting there and doing nothing while wallowing in Loser ignominy.

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notreallyalawyer (Jan 3, 2018 - 11:20 am)

How does one get a compliance job?

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flyer14 (Jan 3, 2018 - 11:38 am)

Apply for it, I presume. I'd have to ask, but I remember at least one guy from my graduating class getting a job at a regional bank doing compliance. And we graduated from a T4 law school so don't tell me it's impossible.

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notreallyalawyer (Jan 3, 2018 - 11:51 am)

I seem to recall from the ones I applied for they listed specific amounts of experience needed and I never heard back from them . Is there entry level compliance work ?

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flyer14 (Jan 3, 2018 - 11:57 am)

https://www.indeed.com/q-Entry-Level-Compliance-Officer-jobs.html

694 Entry Level Compliance Officer jobs available on Indeed.com.

***

A quick Google search revealed that... the guy I'm thinking of got his entry level compliance job with no prior experience from a T4 law school in a larger metro area than the one we hailed from.

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notreallyalawyer (Jan 3, 2018 - 12:01 pm)

Very few are compliance jobs and the first one I saw that was compliance and described as entry level requires experience.

https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=16bba5fb977f7559&from=serp

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flyer14 (Jan 3, 2018 - 12:18 pm)

So I didn’t have the time or energy to examine it more closely - but what about the second entry level job? Or the third? Did they require experience?

I lost count at 200 resumes sent out when I was looking for a job - I figure I was in the low to mid 200s over an 18 month period.

Out of that, I got four interviews and one job offer.

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thirdtierlaw (Jan 4, 2018 - 2:41 pm)

Hence why you have a job. So many people hear, "it's an extremely competitive job" and then use that as an excuse not to apply. If I was unemployed, I'd be sending out 20-50 job applications a day to anywhere that I may be even slightly qualified for. The ad wants 2 years of government contracting experience, I don't care, I'm still sending in my application, I've written quite a few divorce stips, close enough.

People in their job descriptions ask for their ideal candidates. If nobody meets those requirements they're going to look for whoever is arguably closest. Worst case they say no or nothing at all and you lost the 2 minutes it took you to modify one of your cover letters. Once you're applying to multiple jobs a day you're going to have a bank of "tailored" resumes to choose from, so it really is as simple as looking up both the H.R. person & who would be the head of the department of where you're applying to address the letter and a quick throwaway fact about the company to add into your cover.

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nighthawk (Jan 3, 2018 - 3:14 pm)

You wrote: "Anything beats sitting there and doing nothing while wallowing in Loser ignominy."

I agree though suspect that many people prefer to be in loser ignominy than actually do something real.

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bittersweet (Jan 2, 2018 - 1:20 pm)

> Many of them have since moved onto actual attorney positions by now because they were willing
> to suck it up and do what they needed to do to get jobs.

Or they (we) are still doing it and still trying to find something else.

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onehell (Jan 4, 2018 - 1:51 pm)

People shouldn't base their own self-esteem by the degree to which they think some other schmuck should have it even worse.

Have you ever actually worked a real McJob? It's much worse than even doc review and that doesn't change if it pays slightly more. At least you get to sit on your ass as a doc reviewer, you have something you can spin into sounding fancier than it actually is, and no one is ever going to ask you to clean a French fry grease trap at 2:00AM which I can tell you from personal experience is much more degrading, dangerous and dirty than even the most mundane day of clicking responsive or non. Also, very few Mcworkers get 40 hours/wk, and the scheduling is so wildly unpredictable you can't have any life at all. I used to have to check the schedule DAILY just to find out if I was working or not, and I might get put on closing one night and breakfast the next day, leaving less than 4 hours for sleep. I might also just randomly get no hours one week and that's just tough. I know doc review can be unpredictable too, but the situation on the true other side of the fence is still much worse.

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notreallyalawyer (Jan 4, 2018 - 1:54 pm)

I’ve worked at fast food, cvs, giant food. If those jobs paid as much as doc review did I’d go then again in a heart beat. Doc review is so boring

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onehell (Jan 4, 2018 - 1:58 pm)

"I am a contract attorney, currently assigned to ropes & gray, doing e-discovery work in a wide variety of corporate high-dollar litigation matters" vs. "I am a fry cook at McD."

Most people don't know what doc review is. With that in mind, what sounds better to you on a resume? Or on a date for that matter? Would you rather come home sore, tired and stinking to high heaven of fry grease? How is that better than just being bored?

I wouldn't trade the doc review for the McD unless it paid a LOT more. Doc review would still be better, by a pretty wide margin, even if the pay were the same.

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notreallyalawyer (Jan 4, 2018 - 2:29 pm)

At best they’ll confuse You for a real lawyer and not consider you for any work because you are a lawyer to them.

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tedandlisa123 (Jan 4, 2018 - 2:46 pm)

People who know what doc review is won’t hire you because they know you aren’t a real lawyer. People who don’t know what doc review is won’t hire you because you are over qualified. Classic Catch-22.

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notreallyalawyer (Jan 4, 2018 - 2:51 pm)

Exactly

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flyer14 (Jan 4, 2018 - 2:43 pm)

So you be a fry cook. And then leverage your degree and business skills to become a general manager.

Nobody gets ahead with a victim mentality. They need to make something of themselves. Is it easy, no. Is it a straight path, no. But I guarantee you a district manager of McDonalds franchises makes a crap ton more money than someone doing doc review.

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onehell (Jan 4, 2018 - 3:21 pm)

A shift manager makes in the 20s for 60 hour weeks. Making you "manager" and putting you "on salary" was nothing more than a way to avoid paying OT. Typically, your salary would be set at exactly the minimum needed for an FLSA exemption, which last I checked is like 23k. Your duties, meanwhile, are pretty much the same as a regular employee which is why you so often see the people in ties at the register or helping out on the grill. Actual management duties constitute maybe 5% of your time, mostly just calling employees who haven't shown up for work, interrogating people attempting to call in sick, approving breaks, etc. The rest of the time you're on the line like everyone else, except you don't get paid OT and are offered a health insurance policy that if accepted would cost like half your meager paycheck. But that's OK; the open secret of these low-wage jobs is that there is a hidden subsidy for these franchise owners in the form of expanded Medicaid and/or exchange subsidies.

If you moved up from shift manager to store manager, then you might make low to mid 50s. But you're in charge of the whole store. That means the average McD location has exactly one employee who (barely) makes a living wage. The odds of that being you are lottery-like. Plus, you'll have the rather ignominious distinction of being a graduate of Hamburger University. (Seriously, it exists):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger_University

Regional managers typically make like 80-100ish and are given a company car cuz they have to drive around between the stores, but keep in mind that most McD locations are franchised. So such a position only even exists if the franchisee happens to own multiple stores or if you happen to have found yourself in an area where there are corporate-owned stores. And even if the position does exist, the likelihood of obtaining it by being promoted from within is even more remote.

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flyer14 (Jan 4, 2018 - 3:25 pm)

What's more remote.

1) A doc reviewer who believes he will get out of doc review?

-or-

2) A fry cook becoming a district manager?

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onehell (Jan 4, 2018 - 3:31 pm)

2 is more remote. A doc reviewer can hang a shingle, find a compliance job somewhere they don't know what doc review is, or potentially find some small firm to take a chance on them. The odds of these things succeeding may be poor, but they're definitely better than the odds of moving up the McD hierarchy from the bottom.

And failing all that, the doc reviewer has a proven ability to handle graduate-level college work. In the land of unlimited gradPLUS, they could always go back to school.

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flyer14 (Jan 4, 2018 - 3:34 pm)

I may have edited my post slightly for clarity so just make sure your reply is still consistent - I believe there's a significant discrepancy between the number of doc reviewers who actually get out (which I believe to be fairly high) and a subset of lifelong doc reviewers who simply believe they'll never get out (and their belief becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy).

I'm focusing on the latter here, whose actual chances of escaping doc review is slim to none so long as they believe they can't get out.

To them, the fry cook stands a better chance of being promoted to district manager than the doc reviewer has of getting a real legal jerb.

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onehell (Jan 4, 2018 - 3:39 pm)

Yes, absolutely agree that many (and probably most) doc reviewers do eventually get out, one way or another. They either find a real law job or they leave the profession entirely.

The true lifers you reference, though, probably wouldn't get promoted at McD either. The jobs are idiot-proof. Newspapers have caught them at conferences where vendors pitch equipment designed to further a goal of near-100% turnover amongst line crew every 12 months or so, to avoid upward pressure on wages created by experience. They can only do this because a new employee can be trained and learn everything they need to know in an hour or two.

The small number who get promoted get promoted for loyalty, not intelligence. I called these people the McPatriots, the McD equivalent of The Gunner. They would do stuff like rat on co-workers sneaking a chicken nugget in the break room and come in on days off and work without punching in to demonstrate loyalty. The latter is blatantly illegal, but they did it anyway and I saw people get promoted for it.

One guy I will always remember was promoted to one of those silly "shift manager" jobs that want 60 hour weeks for 20k. Still not enough to be housed, so he lived in a tent in the forest behind the store. Guy acted like the place was the best employer in the world because the store manager was so magnanimous as to let him use the laundry machines in the basement that were used to wash dishrags. You'd go into the basement to throw all the rags in the machines at closing and find them full of this dude's underwear.

Keep in mind that this is someone the store represents as being FLSA-exempt and having no need of the protections of overtime. He loved to work insane hours because every minute he was in the store was a minute he wasn't freezing half to death out in the forest. But hey, he got to wear a tie!

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flyer14 (Jan 4, 2018 - 3:43 pm)

Well, that calls into question any and all of our responses when someone joins the board and says "I'm a lifer and I can't get out of doc review."

Our responses are always something along the lines of "hustle" - hustle a side practice, hustle a network, hustle a non-law field, etc.

Unfortunately, if we apply the construct we've made here, a lifer in doc review by definition isn't a hustler and therefore exceedingly unlikely to heed our advice.

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onehell (Jan 4, 2018 - 3:45 pm)

lol that's why I never pitch that hustle angle if they don't seem to have that entrepreneurial bent. I usually say go back to school and retrain for something else, it's only the sunk-cost fallacy that keeps people plugging away at a profession that has so completely rejected them.

Law school is marketed to people looking for a low-risk way of making a nice steady middle-class salary despite having been liberal artists. Then you graduate and they tell 'em they need to be salesmen and should never have expected an actual W2 job doing what they went to school for.

Most people don't go to law school because they have a passion for running their own business, and it's wrong to expect them to suddenly become types of people they are not and never were, just because the school waits until 3L year to tell them the real story.

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wolfman (Jan 4, 2018 - 5:28 pm)

Exactly right. I never tell people to hustle. The way to get out of doc review is to spin your experience, such as it is, do something out of the box (like taking a state civil service test - which is what I did), keep plugging at USAjobs (and not necessarily for atty positions), or retrain and get into something else entirely (at least one person here took permed classes and is now a resident; there are also many other fields).

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flyer14 (Jan 4, 2018 - 3:25 pm)

Double Poast

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loblawyer (Jan 4, 2018 - 6:14 pm)

Although this is hardly representative, the CEO of McDonalds started out in a fry cook / burger flipper type role at one of their locations.

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notreallyalawyer (Jan 4, 2018 - 7:03 pm)

But left for college and business school ?

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tedandlisa123 (Jan 4, 2018 - 3:27 pm)

I don’t do English document review anymore. If no work is available in my foreign language, I fall back on the typical McJob’s. I have done everything from working in the Amazon warehouse, to delivering pizza, to working the fry machine. Doc review is so much more degrading for some reason, I don’t think the few extra bucks they throw out you above minimum wage to do doc review is worth it IMO. There is a psychological price you pay in terms of self-esteem. Your typical prole job is so much more low key. You are surrounded by proles and no one has a chip on their shoulder. It’s actually liberating to be surrounded by proles and degenerates. Some of them are fun. In doc review everyone has a chip on their shoulder and you are at the bottom of some imaginary elitist caste system where everyone looks down on you. The work is also painfully boring. I prefer to move my body and use my hands, not click a mouse like a monkey, destroy my eyesight, and be looked down upon by elitist gay Hillary supporters, who often are the support staff at these big urban mega firms.

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notreallyalawyer (Jan 4, 2018 - 3:32 pm)

I was never suicidally depressed when I worked retail but when I did I was still in college with hope for the future . Now I have none

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flyer14 (Jan 4, 2018 - 3:54 pm)

Based upon your Poasts you are a Scumbag and that's actually a good thing in a forum full of Losers. Keep on the grind, you're going to go places.

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notreallyalawyer (Jan 4, 2018 - 3:57 pm)

Going where??? My life sucks. I know felons who are better off than I am

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flyer14 (Jan 4, 2018 - 3:59 pm)

That was directed at tedandlisa123, who is willing to engage in manual labor type jobs in order to not get truly stuck in doc review. I did the same thing when I was a penniless solo. I wrenched on cars in my spare time to make extra cash... you gotta do what you gotta do.

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tedandlisa123 (Jan 4, 2018 - 5:26 pm)

Totally. I think it would do some of the doc reviewers that complain on here some good if they cut back on their review hours and did a side hustle where they could get their hands dirty. Maybe it wouldn’t give them a financial benefit, but definitely a psyche boost that they might even be able to use to climb out of doc review. Getting cold and dirty and earning an honest wage will do wonders for your mind. Engaging in endless makework where you wallow in self-pity will only lead to depression, existential anxiety, and hopelessness.

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wolfman (Jan 4, 2018 - 5:31 pm)

Yeah, that may very well be true...

When I was in doc review, I thought of training as a computer technician, but the one free program I applied to nixed me (too white and educated) and now I have a full-time job and take science/pre-med classes on the side... so there isn't really any time to pursue it other than maybe in the summer. If you aren't doing that, a hands-on side hustle is credited.

In my case, I would genuinely like to learn how to fix computers and do networking, even if no one is willing to pay me to do it... as it is, I fix everything and explain/show how to use hardware and software to family and coworkers constantly, despite having NO training whatsoever, and only the barest understanding of how things work, simply because a) I can google, and b) I don't think computers/devices will eat me if I touch them... knock on wood. Maybe I ought to do more self-study for the A+ and Network+ or something.

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nighthawk (Jan 9, 2018 - 6:23 pm)

You should also become a chiropractor. Those guys believe that they can cure anything.

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bodog (Jan 4, 2018 - 4:08 pm)

You're right about the physical toll of doc review. Sitting silently in an uncomfortable chair for 10 hours staring at a flickering monitor while anxiety slowly eats you away is probably on par with smoking two packs of cigarettes and eating McDonalds every day. Doc Reviewers are a sickly lot with all kinds of weird medical ailments.

And that brings us to health insurance...another area where the Click Monkey hustling for his $43k gets screwed with $600 premium/$7000 deductible/50% co-insurance plans, whereas the minimum wage or low hourly prole at least gets some sweet Obamacare subsidies on top of a potentially healthier workplace that provides some stimulation and physical activity.

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bittersweet (Jan 4, 2018 - 5:47 pm)

Doc review sucks, but it could be so much worse. Yes, the job is boring and I'm looking for better, but I've had jobs that were far worse. I've worked various restaurant jobs, retail, construction, garages, roofing, etc. Doc review sucks, but that's in comparison to other ATTORNEY positions.

Compared to restaurants, blue collar stuff or retail, I'll take doc review. Yeah, doc review will strain my eyes and my neck and I sit on my ass too much. But I don't burn myself, get cut on something sharp, take a tumble which results in broken bones or get robbed at gunpoint - All of which I have had happen to me in my various previous jobs.

There are problems and the whole doc review sector is a huge waste of talent. The biggest problems are how boring it is, the lack of benefits and how hit and miss your employment is. But it could be so, SO much worse.

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notreallyalawyer (Jan 4, 2018 - 5:55 pm)

Keep in mind if min wage keeps rising doc review will be s minimum wage job. Also with the other jobs you had did you need schooling? With doc review you realize you failed in your mission.

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flyer14 (Jan 9, 2018 - 3:51 pm)

The one time I did any sort of doc review it's because a solo friend of mine asked if I'd review a banker's box of records and find certain things in it. He paid me $400 for the job, which turned out to be about $25 an hour. I wouldn't relish doing it for a living, but it was a decent chunk of change and I'd do it again if I wanted more cash.

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