Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

"Our alumni are not stepping up"

Recalling my many meetings attempting to find work as an att jdcumlaude02/14/18
Read: no one will hire you unless they went here and pity yo khazaddum02/14/18
I had to leave NC myself that place been flooded for a long triplesix02/14/18
LOL. A good retort would have been "How many of your profess onehell02/14/18
"wouldn't hire their own grads to mop the floors, unless it' inho2solo02/14/18
Oh yes, you're right. Looks like USNWR changed its methodolo onehell02/14/18
I had a similar conversation with a woman from career servic thirdtierlaw02/14/18
Haha that is satisfying to read. therewillbeblood02/14/18
"I'd step up if your degree paid enough for me to hire" The trijocker02/14/18
They are legally certified to beg.... In fact Blake Morant o triplesix02/14/18
Wow. Reminds me of my LS career placement office. Run by a qdllc02/15/18
Yep. I remember going to my career services office, express dupednontraditional02/16/18
I asked my the career service of m yundistinguished undergra mrlollipop02/16/18
I think the real answer here is that CSO's job is not what i onehell02/18/18
A few years ago I was hiring an associate and thought “let notiers02/17/18
LOL same situation here with somewhat higher numbers. This a wolfman02/17/18
I had a similar experience with my law school. I was hiring therover02/20/18
At my school, someone called in asking for candidates for a thedarkscrivener02/21/18
This isn't that uncommon; the clinical instructor in one of wolfman02/21/18
They definitely don't have it made in the shade. In fact, I onehell02/21/18
In America we got 1001 problems but there is nobody ever who triplesix02/21/18
Not at all. The people to blame for the scam are the executi onehell02/21/18
Career services people litterily are at the center of the sc triplesix02/21/18

jdcumlaude (Feb 14, 2018 - 12:47 pm)

Recalling my many meetings attempting to find work as an attorney in the NC job market. This line was my forgotten favorite.

Many graduate were having issues finding employment and when I asked the career center coordinator about the primary barrier...this was the response. "Our alumni are not stepping up" to hire new grads. At the time I did not recognize how profoundly spurious this statement was. I fell for the line and never questioned its validity.

Alumni in NC (from most schools) are dealing with the market glut just as everyone else is. Here was an employee (well paid at that) passing blame for poor employment outcomes on the previous graduating classes that came before me. Never once in all my conversation with the career center was blame ever cast at a single group of people. Sure they would blame the economy, the changing landscape, technology, but never at any other time did they blame a certain group. It is telling that when pushed law schools lay blame in a way that encourages alumni to eat their own.

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khazaddum (Feb 14, 2018 - 12:54 pm)

Read: no one will hire you unless they went here and pity you.

To be fair, most state colleges and other law schools are in the same boat. I’d never hire a graduate from my law school based on current admissions criteria.

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triplesix (Feb 14, 2018 - 1:02 pm)

I had to leave NC myself that place been flooded for a long time, hopefully shutting down of Charlotte trashlaw will ease the situation.

Also... What you are talking about is not just law schools. Lame ass whites use that logic for all of the failing institutions they supervise. They are never to blame for anything. Think big banks or failed Auto industry. What about gov debt. Or the wars of 00s. Huge wastes and failures but not a single person in charge or profiting from it is ever to blame for anything.

It even extends on discussions of race in the US. Racism is bad and proverbial white man is guilty but nobody was ever held accountable for anything. People who benefited from it are still rich too, no big deal. They earned everything via hard work...

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onehell (Feb 14, 2018 - 1:25 pm)

LOL. A good retort would have been "How many of your professors are graduates of the school? When the school itself has a legal issue, how many of the humungous firms it retains have a significant number of alums as associates or partners there?"

I've found that a lot of these schools wouldn't hire their own grads to mop the floors, unless it's in a temporary position that lasts exactly 9 months and 1 day. It is, of course, sheer coincidence that 9 months postgrad is the last point at which USNWR measures % employed, and thus the last moment in time where one of their students can affect their ranking.

That tells me all I need to know about how much these schools care about their grads. Once they've cashed the last loan check and found some way to report them as "employed 9 months postgrad" for USNWR, the answer is not one whit.

Alums should step up? Really? The law school itself doesn't believe in the quality of their product enough to use it themselves, so how can they expect alums to do so? These places are like Ford dealerships owned by people who exclusively drive Mercedes.

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inho2solo (Feb 14, 2018 - 1:37 pm)

"wouldn't hire their own grads to mop the floors, unless it's in a temporary position that lasts exactly 9 months and 1 day. It is, of course, sheer coincidence that 9 months postgrad is the last point at which USNWR measures % employed,"


Actually, once the ABA closed the loophole on counting these people in "JD required" jobs, it turned into "wouldn't hire their own grads to mop floors. Period."


Take a look at the before/after at some of the biggest offenders like GW and Emory. Went from employing a large percentage of their classes as supposed "JD required" to very, very few in just the next year once the change took effect.

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onehell (Feb 14, 2018 - 2:44 pm)

Oh yes, you're right. Looks like USNWR changed its methodology to match ABA. So now USNWR only gives full credit to a job which is full-time, expected to last at least a year, requires bar passage, and which is not funded by the school:

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/law-schools-methodology

It does appear that there is still SOME weight (albeit less) given to a school-funded job though. So while the value of these things to a school's ranking has been significantly reduced, it has not been entirely eliminated. Still better for the school to have someone in that category than "unemployed and seeking," which is the status they will do everything they can to avoid reporting you as.

As an aside, I've noticed that the schools definitely report a lot of "unknown." Something tells me they don't try very hard, and may actually do everything they can to avoid knowing the post-graduation address of anyone they suspect may be unemployed.

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thirdtierlaw (Feb 14, 2018 - 2:45 pm)

I had a similar conversation with a woman from career services not too long ago.

I was being extremely petty, but about 2 years ago, I was thinking about jumping to a highly respected midsized firm, because the thought of grinding out divorces and DUIs was wearing me down. I knew what they were offering for a starting salary, but I had no idea of how quickly that'd increase, if at all. Knowing that a few alumni had worked there or were currently working there, including a partner, I reached out to career services to see if they knew about actual work-life balance at the firm. I also wanted to know what salaries looked like at that firm. I'm in a small legal market where some non-PI attorneys are making $500k+ a year and some are making $35k a year. There didn't appear to be any "market rate" that was easily discernable. I never heard back from them. Not an "I don't know," but I had e-mailed twice and then called on two separate occasions, both times the secretary said they'd call me back within a day. Never heard anything.

So a few weeks ago, career services from my school was trying to place an "intern for school credit" with us because she knew that "last year we were looking to hire another associate and we never found a good fit." I explained to her that we are not interested at this time. She came back with the nonsense that it's the duty of alumni to help place current students in jobs. It felt so good to calmly explain that when most other career services call, my firm would be glad to hear them out, however, from my personal experience with the nonresponsiveness of this school's career services department, I just wouldn't feel comfortable navigating even the minimal paperwork that'd be required to take on an intern from that school. I then said if she has any questions about what I'm referring to she should ask the two people I had e-mailed directly.

Within a day I received a signed apology letter from both the individuals I had named during that phone call and the dean of the school to my personal e-mail address.

Though the legal market is turning around, it's far from strong. The reality is that I went to a 3T school. When my firm was looking to hire a third associate last year, we were getting applications from people who graduated towards the top of their class in 2T schools with actual experience. Even though we are an extremely small legal market we still got close to 100 competitive applications, I have no idea how many noncompetitive applications we just trashed automatically.

TL;dr version: Career services are a joke and at least from my alma mater if you are passed that 9month window, they do not care to help you out. But at least in this one case, it caused a possible employer to now completely ignore them.

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therewillbeblood (Feb 14, 2018 - 4:26 pm)

Haha that is satisfying to read.

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trijocker (Feb 14, 2018 - 4:07 pm)

"I'd step up if your degree paid enough for me to hire"
The insufferable hubris of these law schools is nauseating.
When I first read it, I thought it would be about stepping up the donations to the law school, yes please support the lifestyle of the profs and deans.I get the not stop begging for donations as well.

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triplesix (Feb 14, 2018 - 4:19 pm)

They are legally certified to beg.... In fact Blake Morant of gw law told me that's his job number one. Lil b1tch can't stop social climbing haha

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qdllc (Feb 15, 2018 - 10:51 am)

Wow. Reminds me of my LS career placement office. Run by a secretary who basically copy/pasted things done by other law schools. I don’t know of anyone who got a good job through her office, but I got a chuckle when she announced she was leaving to start a new job running the career services office for another university. I guess she managed to get one person into a better job.

Hell, when I was finishing school, I wanted to access services from law schools where I was moving to. Since I was graduating in December (took a semester off), the reciprocal period wouldn’t begin for several months...even though I was graduating now.

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dupednontraditional (Feb 16, 2018 - 1:17 pm)

Yep. I remember going to my career services office, expressing sincere concerns, looking for earnest advice, etc.

I was given an alumni spreadsheet printed off excel, which was basically a long address and telephone list. Some of the data went back 40 years. They said to start making phone calls - oh, by the way, the data hadn't been updated for a while, so you may have to update this along the way...

Who should I start with? "Start at the top."

That's when I knew the game was over. Like khazaddum said above: "Read: no one will hire you unless they went here and pity you."

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mrlollipop (Feb 16, 2018 - 8:33 pm)

I asked my the career service of m yundistinguished undergraduate about contacting alumnis in Shanghai. The guy that answered my email told me to look on linkedin.

Here I am fighting for the survival of my business by working 16 hours a day. And my school is paying like what? 80K, 100K for someone in the career office to do monkey's work

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onehell (Feb 18, 2018 - 2:46 am)

I think the real answer here is that CSO's job is not what it appears to be from the student's perspective.

Their real job is that they are not career coaches, but a sort of hybrid of a marketing department and a number-cruncher. As in, they are supposed to feed statistics to the departments that have to report the employment numbers to the ABA and USNWR, and help the people who make the view books spin those numbers (and anecdotes from the few students that do get placed) into something they can plaster on the website.

Basically, the job is to find a way for the school to stay in close contact with its successes, and distance itself from its failures. Most of their work is for the school itself, not its students. The student-facing part is just for show, except of course for arranging the OCI interviews for the kids who came in top of the 1L class.

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notiers (Feb 17, 2018 - 8:31 am)

A few years ago I was hiring an associate and thought “let me call my school and see if they have someone...”. Position was paying about $80,000-$85,000 for a brand new associate. They hardly wanted to take my call and never sent a single resume.

Thanks to it’s uber 4th tier status - the current class at my law school is filled with 145 LSAT scorers with 2.75 UGPAs from lousy colleges. I wouldn’t touch them with a 10 foot pole at this point (at least when I went you needed a mid to high 150 and a 3.0 to get in).

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wolfman (Feb 17, 2018 - 10:44 pm)

LOL same situation here with somewhat higher numbers. This also relates to the thread about "prestige" from undergrad.

The bottom line is, if I were in a position to hire anyone, I sure as hell wouldn't hire a recent grad from my LS, since both its ranking and its standards have dropped like a rock... unless that person was a friend, a classmate, or nearly a classmate (I actually liked people I went to school with, and we were a much more competitive school back then) OR if the person had gone to an Ivy-type undergrad like I did - so I at least knew he was halfway intelligent.

Of course, a person who went to an Ivy-type undergrad and then ended up in my LS (ESPECIALLY with its current ranking/numbers) also shows a propensity for making really crappy choices in life... but that's something I can at least sympathize with haha.

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therover (Feb 20, 2018 - 3:56 pm)

I had a similar experience with my law school. I was hiring in the dark years (2009-2011) and I reached out to them with three postings. They were totally not helpful other than throwing it up on their outdated website. It was ridiculous. No follow up at all. I had no use for them at all after that.

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thedarkscrivener (Feb 21, 2018 - 9:20 am)

At my school, someone called in asking for candidates for a job, and the assistant dean of Career Services *took the job herself*.

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wolfman (Feb 21, 2018 - 10:07 am)

This isn't that uncommon; the clinical instructor in one of my clinics - who was getting laid off at the end of the academic year - took the only job I had an actual chance of getting before graduation... of course they'd rather hire an experienced attorney in the exact niche area than a new grad waiting to take the bar!

She actually felt bad about it (as I now understand in retrospect having learned the full story) and tried like hell to get me a regional biglaw job through a friend of hers... but all that got me was a look-see interview as a 3L, which went nowhere once I submitted my transcript.

As an aside, we think Career Services folks have it made in the shade, but I'm not sure that is always true. Law schools (at least non-T14 ones, which is the only ones I have real experience with) are really unpleasant environments to work in unless you are a faculty member (and sometimes even then). I had several opportunities to work in one (not as a professor, of course, I'd be as eager to take that as the next person, but as lowly staff) and I really didn't want to. Perhaps things are different in T14/T6 institutions... but perhaps not. I've heard HLS is really unpleasant (once again, I'm not talking about faculty who do have it made x1000, but term assistant directors of something or other). Actual lawyers (at least government ones) seem much more decent.

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onehell (Feb 21, 2018 - 5:11 pm)

They definitely don't have it made in the shade. In fact, I feel for them. They can't place people in jobs that don't exist and I'm sure the futility of their task (not to mention the obligation to supply misleading stats to marketing for distribution to the next crop of prospective vic..er, students) leads to a lot of the defensive reactions we see as rudeness on their part.

I'm sure a lot of them would tell touring 0Ls to run like hell, if they only could. But they gotta eat and these jobs aren't the gilded packages that deans get, just regular middle class salaries.

In short, just cuz you benefit from the scam doesn't mean you are to blame for it.

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triplesix (Feb 21, 2018 - 5:34 pm)

In America we got 1001 problems but there is nobody ever who is at fault or to be held accountable bc that would be unfair to the good people benefiting fincially from those injustices. They have feelings too... Amirite bro?

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onehell (Feb 21, 2018 - 5:47 pm)

Not at all. The people to blame for the scam are the executives or their nonprofit and government equivalents in the deans' offices. Also to blame are the feds and all the countless servicers they contract with. But even at Nelnet or whatever, you blame the leadership for profiting off so much human misery. You don't blame the random dude who took a job in their call center for $12 an hour.

Leaders are the ones you "hold accountable," not the rank and file. I think that's pretty well-understood in most sectors.

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triplesix (Feb 21, 2018 - 5:51 pm)

Career services people litterily are at the center of the scum issue... They juked the numbers for money. Accountability starts with them in my book. If it was not for phoney salary brochures of 2007-09, I would not have gone.

Otherwise I agree with you.

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