Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

Jordan Peterson on "low end lawyers" at 01:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlG _Cwxnpx0 xstockholmsynhostag02/16/18
I just watched a little of this. The guy sounds semi-retarde guyingorillasuit02/16/18
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence r/2018/02/why-they-listen cacrimdefense02/17/18
Sounds about right. Regular Joes can DIY most of the low end isthisit02/18/18
Yes. Plus new judges are very lenient on pro ses. The rules khazaddum02/18/18
I don't agree with this. Any attempt by a pro se person to c jorgedeclaro02/18/18
I have mixed views on the comments of the poster above. ambulancechaser201302/18/18
Lets just face the truth, most lawyers are leeches that prov mtbislife02/18/18
"Lets just face the truth, most lawyers are leeches that pro ambulancechaser201302/18/18
How many TBI cases do you handle? Im sure most are bs trip a mtbislife02/18/18
Yes, my cases are fender benders. But there are real TBIs ar ambulancechaser201302/18/18
I'd hasten to add that state court judges in Delaware, espec specv31302/18/18
Being a lawyer no longer confers an advantage on a case by c wearyattorney02/18/18
Billy Johnson can relate to the masses and build a nice litt mattbaileylawdotcom02/20/18
Yo, bro: if you can’t make $$$ with a Harvard Law degree I ambulancechaser201302/18/18
There are countless examples of people succeeding with no fo wearyattorney02/18/18
If you can get into law school with no debt and have $0.00 d ambulancechaser201302/18/18
Most students don’t go to law school for free. I don’t wearyattorney02/18/18
You're better off going to Villanova for free, if you can ge ambulancechaser201302/18/18
10-15 years of civil litigation experience in a major city w ambulancechaser201302/18/18
10-15 years experience in teaching in certain major cities w wearyattorney02/18/18
Lol, good post. mtbislife02/18/18
Fair enough. Being a lawyer or a politician was my life goa ambulancechaser201302/18/18
He's absolutely right. Now, every possible form is avai patenttrollnj02/19/18
People can also do their own car repairs and plumbing if the fettywap02/19/18
1. It must be all transactional / larger firm types who are dakotalaw02/19/18
Pro se in anything other than small claims is a disaster. I therover02/20/18

xstockholmsynhostag (Feb 16, 2018 - 1:15 am)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlG_Cwxnpx0

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guyingorillasuit (Feb 16, 2018 - 1:54 am)

I just watched a little of this. The guy sounds semi-retarded, like a high-functioning autiste. Is he somebody famous?

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cacrimdefense (Feb 17, 2018 - 11:26 pm)

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/02/why-they-listen-to-jordan-peterson.html

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isthisit (Feb 18, 2018 - 9:06 am)

Sounds about right. Regular Joes can DIY most of the low end legal work if they just google "sample *whatever* doc" or "how to sue in special civil", etc.

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khazaddum (Feb 18, 2018 - 10:58 am)

Yes. Plus new judges are very lenient on pro ses. The rules of civil procedure are not applicable.

Now in federal court? Its still proper litigation. Most state court judges appointed now are among the dumbest members of the bar.

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jorgedeclaro (Feb 18, 2018 - 10:05 pm)

I don't agree with this. Any attempt by a pro se person to conduct civil litigation is a disaster. The family law docket as a whole calendar for pro se people because they mess up the simplest legal standard in the world "just, equitable division; best interests of the child." They can't write a contract; 80% of the real estate transaction pro se people try to write without a real estate agent are unenforceable. About the only thing people can legal zoom themselves are corporate entity creation, wills and simple residential leases.

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ambulancechaser2013 (Feb 18, 2018 - 1:05 pm)

I have mixed views on the comments of the poster above.

First of all, I agree that the Jordan Peterson is right, knowing to work a computer, ie programming/coding helps a lot.

Second, to the poster above, I disagree. I was in Court last week and the judge basically told the Pro Se to get an attorney or his case will go to hell. Attorneys know procedure, actually I’ll do you one more, good attorneys know procedure. I would not like a workers comp or immigration attorney to do civil or vice versa. The pro se said he wants a fair trial. The judge said he won’t even get to that if he doesn’t abide by procedure. Can a really smart pro se Wing it, ie a person who went to a very very respectable undergrad, I’d stil say no.

Third, the person who says state judges are idiots is way off. Civil judges in Los Angeles are very sharp. Family law judges in Los Angeles are sharp. Hell even WC administrative judges are sharp (ish).

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mtbislife (Feb 18, 2018 - 1:24 pm)

Lets just face the truth, most lawyers are leeches that provide little to no benefit for society as a whole. Things like overly complicated procedure and legal vocab are deliberately in place to ensure lawyers have jobs. These barriers exist into fooling the public into thinking they need a lawyer when often times the lawyer doesnt know what to do themselves.

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ambulancechaser2013 (Feb 18, 2018 - 8:23 pm)

"Lets just face the truth, most lawyers are leeches that provide little to no benefit for society as a whole."

Really? What about the prosecutor pursuing legit cases or the public defender vice versa.

What about the business litigation attorney defending the ADA lawsuit?

What about a serious Personal Injury Traumatic Brian Injury lawsuit?

Forget all of the above and just sink your teeth on this:

If there were no lawyers, then people would resort to force/violence and/or corruption to resolve their disputes. Sounds cool, right.

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mtbislife (Feb 18, 2018 - 8:42 pm)

How many TBI cases do you handle? Im sure most are bs trip and fall and fender benders.

Theres plenty of violence and corruption with lawyers, often times they are conduits for corruption. Its laughable to suggest lawyers are holding society together.

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ambulancechaser2013 (Feb 18, 2018 - 10:43 pm)

Yes, my cases are fender benders. But there are real TBIs are there. America, Britain and Canada’s rule of law society is the best in the world. And I say that as an immigrant.

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specv313 (Feb 18, 2018 - 1:08 pm)

I'd hasten to add that state court judges in Delaware, especially on the chancery side, are top notch.

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wearyattorney (Feb 18, 2018 - 3:23 pm)

Being a lawyer no longer confers an advantage on a case by case basis in relation to any other job.

There is no premium in being a lawyer. Most will fail (they will never see an appreciable return on the degree in relation to other options), a few will get by, and still fewer will succeed. It’s the same as the guy or gal who goes into journalism, opens a deli, an auto repair shop, etc. It’s like anything else, except it comes with a100-300k price tag, 4-8 years of time, and 4-8 years of opportunity cost.

The problem is that social convention is always 20-30 years behind true market conditions, so people still think law is a safe bet. It’s not just low end lawyers that are going to get hit, but medium end ones as well. It’s going to tip into the top too.

Otherwuse his analysis is quite spot on, but his over concentration on IQ, conscientiousness, and stress tolerance misses one or two key points. The first is failing to acknowledge class issues. People from the the upper crust will always hire other people from the upper crust. People like to hire people like themselves, and class is the most critical component for determining a basis of similarity. In ten seconds flat, Theodore Reddington IV is going to understand and relate more with Yoshi Tamatoto (whose father is a major rice distributor in Japan) than Billy Johnson from West Virginia (even if Billy goes to Harvard Law).

Second, what about athletes? Whether you have a high or low IQ, having athletic ability can be a path forward at the top of the spectrum.

I think the key to success includes factoring these two components into an analysis, in addition to the other things he mentioned; otherwise the guy is quite amazing and spot on. The liberal world view that everyone is the same is creating a ton of body bags.

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mattbaileylawdotcom (Feb 20, 2018 - 6:47 am)

Billy Johnson can relate to the masses and build a nice little fiefdom.

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ambulancechaser2013 (Feb 18, 2018 - 4:41 pm)

Yo, bro: if you can’t make $$$ with a Harvard Law degree I have no pity for you.

There are countless examples of poor whites and immigrants making bank with less credentials than that. My old boss went to a garbage school and killed it running a PI mill. If he had a Harvard degree he would have connned major businesses to work with him.

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wearyattorney (Feb 18, 2018 - 7:25 pm)

There are countless examples of people succeeding with no formal education, that’s not the standard to determine whether or not to pursue something. Pick any career, any job, and I’ll find you wild success stories. The question is why spend 7 years and a few hundred k to pursue law over something else.

I agree that the Harvard Law degree is usually a path to success, even for the downtrodden. However, if you can get into Harvard Law, you can get into Harvard Business School. Why attend the former if you can attend the latter? I’m just responding to Peterson’s assessment that says success is predicated on IQ, conscientousness, and stress resiliency. (He’s actually a bit more nuanced, which I like. He says to be successful you have to be in the top quarter of those features for a given job. So it’s better to be in the top quarter of teaching than the bottom half of law, for example). He’s not factoring in class. See, e.g., George W. Bush. Class and connections are more important than all these things.

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ambulancechaser2013 (Feb 18, 2018 - 4:43 pm)

If you can get into law school with no debt and have $0.00 debt at the end it’s worth it. What else are you going to do? Teach history in the Bronx?

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wearyattorney (Feb 18, 2018 - 7:32 pm)

Most students don’t go to law school for free. I don’t know how strong the teacher’s union is in the Bronx, but I can tell you that being a teacher in most places in NJ, and some places in Pennsylvania sure as hell beats (for most) practicing personal injury, divorce and/or criminal law. See also the thread regarding Chicago teacher salaries.

It’s a case by case basis, and an individual determination. It’s definitely better to graduate U Penn law on a full scholly than pursuing teaching, but if you are poor, and have the grit and determiantion to accomplish that, you have other options that are better than both law and teaching.

Now, is it better to graduate Cooley for free than teach in the Bronx? I don’t know for sure, but I bet the answer is that it’s better to go teach.

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ambulancechaser2013 (Feb 18, 2018 - 8:12 pm)

You're better off going to Villanova for free, if you can get the scholly. Here's why: even an average civil litigator doing basic tort defense can net $125,000.00. If you save up and start a PI practice with one or two partners you can double that.

To each, to his own. I would rather go to Court every day and trial in civil court twice a year than teach students checks and balances for another 45 years.

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ambulancechaser2013 (Feb 18, 2018 - 8:19 pm)

10-15 years of civil litigation experience in a major city will give you $125,000 if it's ID.

If "high end" complex commercial, ie over $300.00 an hour billing, you could get $200,000.00

Sure, after 7 years you might wash out as an too experienced associate, but there are in house job/government opportunities. And that's if you don't want to start your firm (which I would not advise for a person addicted to a stable every 2 weeks paycheck).

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wearyattorney (Feb 18, 2018 - 8:33 pm)

10-15 years experience in teaching in certain major cities will net you 125k and higher, with half the year off, gold plated benefits, and insulation from globalization which is obliterating the standard of living for the majority of the population.

Now... sure, if you are the type of person that wants to do three times the work for the same or similar pay, with half the time off, and no job security because you find law interesting, I guess it makes sense.

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mtbislife (Feb 18, 2018 - 8:43 pm)

Lol, good post.

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ambulancechaser2013 (Feb 18, 2018 - 8:35 pm)

Fair enough. Being a lawyer or a politician was my life goal. I achieved the first.

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patenttrollnj (Feb 19, 2018 - 1:38 am)

He's absolutely right.

Now, every possible form is available online, and anyone can fill it out. The rest is just haggling with the clerk 99% of the time.

Although, I'm a bit skeptical about the whole driverless cars bit. Even if we ever get to that point technologically, there will be a public outcry and then they'll be made illegal.

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fettywap (Feb 19, 2018 - 10:20 am)

People can also do their own car repairs and plumbing if they want. Most of them don't. Have you ever seen people who filed things pro se? It may work on a simple agreed divorce, and then only because the judge overlooks that they filed things incorrectly. Anything else, the person filing pro se is going to lose. Even small claims they get a judgment but they don't know how to collect it.

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dakotalaw (Feb 19, 2018 - 6:33 pm)

1. It must be all transactional / larger firm types who are saying pro se litigants can handle their own and all the forms are online, etc. That is insane. Please actually visit a state courthouse before posting on this topic.

2. Can someone explain why “learning to program” is important? Would this not only be important for say, programmers? Lawyers should “learn to program?” I think he was talking about computer skills in general, not specifically programming.

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therover (Feb 20, 2018 - 3:54 pm)

Pro se in anything other than small claims is a disaster. I’ve seen lawyers represent themselves in higher courts and royally F up simple cases (auto/slip and fall) because they don’t know what they’re doing. A colleague tried a case against a non-barred lawyer acting pro se and the pro we plaintiff managed to lose a rear ender. It was sad.

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