Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

leaked 2019 law school ranks

https://abovethelaw.com/2018/03/the -leaked-2019-u-s-news-law jdcumlaude03/13/18
They're "leaked" every year. isthisit03/13/18
Chemerinsky pulled up Berkeley's nos by 3 by taking over as trijocker03/13/18
Sort of embarrassing ND drops 4 and got passed by UCI irishlaw03/13/18
Look for ND to go back up next year, and watch UCI drop with trijocker03/13/18
Meh, all that matters is T6. Who cares that Colorado fell 1 massivemissive03/13/18
UOP Mcgeorge gutting law faculty by 25% Bloodbath post USNR trijocker03/13/18
Too bad that "McGeorge Dominates" guy isn't still around 6figuremistake03/14/18
"The Rankings" are a tool for social positioning amongst aca 2tierreality03/13/18
Exactly. T6 didn't change one bit. Georgetown is #14? Really wolfman03/13/18
Georgetown uses some unusual loan repay programs for its law trijocker03/13/18
I think they also play the transfer game. At least when superttthero03/13/18
Would a transfer be eligible for a scholarship? I know seve trijocker03/13/18
I have no idea, but my guess is that there is virtually zero superttthero03/14/18
Pull their required disclosures and see how many non-1L stud inho2solo03/14/18
Where do you find their required disclosures as to tuition d trijocker03/14/18
It's been a while since I've dug up this kind of stuff, but inho2solo03/14/18
The Tiers that matter: 1) HYS- you can go, but if you got wearyattorney03/13/18
Good but needs simplifying. I'd go like this: HYSCCN: Go. onehell03/13/18
[double post] onehell03/13/18
I would add that you shouldn't go to any law school at full massivemissive03/14/18
Right, it would probably be better to take a free ride from 6figuremistake03/14/18
What does it take to get a free ride at Columbia? 4.0, 180, inho2solo03/14/18
Haha, I was waitlisted in Columbia, but did not get in there wolfman03/14/18
Never applied anywhere in the T6, so was wondering what it w inho2solo03/14/18
I personally knew someone who got into Columbia with a schol wolfman03/14/18
Columbia offers a Hamilton scholarship based upon merit, whi 6figuremistake03/15/18
Well yes, it is indeed possible that you could end up in big onehell03/20/18
If you can get into HYS, there are other options. Law is go wearyattorney03/20/18
Yale will repay loans for any grad who doesn’t make enough dingbat03/21/18
The problem with these warnings is only JDUers are reading t trijocker03/14/18
I can discern that my school has yet to find it's way back i 3lol03/13/18
That does raise the important question for those who are pre thirdtierlaw03/14/18
There's no real difference, but spin it however you want so onehell03/14/18
Yea you're probably right. My school will never crack the to thirdtierlaw03/14/18
My situation exactly. I technically attended a top 25 law sc wolfman03/14/18
Frankly it doesn't matter. At this point, I can only rely on 3lol03/14/18
Lol they all teach the same thing. physicssezno03/13/18
Mine was ranked 140 last time I checked! Now its rank is not mnjd03/14/18
Campbell made it into the 140s the year after they moved to jdcumlaude03/15/18
Does it really make a difference whether you attended school greenhorn03/14/18
Lol I just realized this thread has more than twice the numb irishlaw03/14/18
It's a data mining operation, jdu holds the online soul of t triplesix03/15/18
UCI: 21 Chapman: 139 Haha thedarkscrivener03/15/18
When I see the name of Gonzaga, I think of the town of Gonga 3lol03/15/18
The rankings haven't mattered for a while now. HYS are virt pauperesq03/15/18
Don't go unless the answers to 2 out of 3 are "yes": 1) anothernjlawyer03/20/18

jdcumlaude (Mar 13, 2018 - 11:28 am)

https://abovethelaw.com/2018/03/the-leaked-2019-u-s-news-law-school-rankings-are-here/2/

http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/2019-usnwr-rankings/

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isthisit (Mar 13, 2018 - 11:39 am)

They're "leaked" every year.

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trijocker (Mar 13, 2018 - 11:50 am)

Chemerinsky pulled up Berkeley's nos by 3 by taking over as Dean
Guess his stewardship was positive at UCI as well, since UCI moved up by 7 and knocked around the top 20. I never hear anyone stating they want in at UCI, it's always CAL or UCLA.

What's up with the politics around UCLA and UT, they were both knocked out of top 14 by Gtown?

"Chemersinky tried, though. He admitted a tiny entering class of 89 this year, compared to 126 last year–only this year’s new students count for Irvine’s inaugural U.S. News rating–what Paul Caron calls a “US News hail Mary.” (I’m not criticizing him for doing so, that’s exactly how I would have played it, if finances allowed). But this was only enough to attract students with a median LSAT of 164 and median GPA of 3.53. Those are, in fact, amazing numbers for a young law school, but not nearly enough to get the school into the U.S. News top 20, and indeed are not top-20 statistics themselves. For example, at U.S. News number 20 USC, the relevant medians are 166 and 3.76"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/10/u-c-irvine-law-school-didnt-make-the-top-20-what-went-wrong/?utm_term=.fc12f274a39e

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irishlaw (Mar 13, 2018 - 12:03 pm)

Sort of embarrassing ND drops 4 and got passed by UCI

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trijocker (Mar 13, 2018 - 12:10 pm)

Look for ND to go back up next year, and watch UCI drop without any alum connections
Once Chemerinsky's Machiavellian strategies for the school are gone, UCI's light will dim.

"The only reason why UC-Irvine ranked 30 this year is due to Erwin's strategic tweaking of the recent 1L class a.k.a. "Hail Mary pass." I believe the Class of "17 had only 87 or 89 1Ls. This allowed UC-Irvine to remain competitive with the GPA/LSAT metric, which was not really that remarkable to begin with. UC-Irvine cannot sustain itself financially with 300 students. Erwin's salary coupled with his wife's, tops over $650K a year. There are 43 other overpaid faculty members. With discounted tuition for 300 students, the UC-Irvine fantasy project cannot last. I hope a CA politician introduces a referendum/proposition to close down this school as it is a drain of resources and taxpayer funds. Erwin himself boasted that UC-Irvine would have 600-800 students. If he opts to go for the larger classes, UC-Irvine will drop like an anvil in the rankings.
I am not impressed with the T30 ranking for Irvine. I never believed it would be an "instant T20" as Erwin bragged about when the school opened. I kind of feel bad for the dupes who turned down T14 schools to attend this propped up house of cards law school."

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massivemissive (Mar 13, 2018 - 12:21 pm)

Meh, all that matters is T6. Who cares that Colorado fell 10 points?

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trijocker (Mar 13, 2018 - 12:23 pm)

UOP Mcgeorge gutting law faculty by 25%
Bloodbath post USNR rankings release gets ugly

Tuesday, March 13, 2018

McGeorge Law School To Reduce Faculty By 25% Through Voluntary Buyouts

McGeorgeSacramento Bee, McGeorge School of Law to Reduce Full-Time Faculty By About 25%:

Dean Michael Schwartz said the move is part of the Sacramento law school’s strategic plan for the next five years and faculty members who volunteer for buyouts will have several options related to timing. ...

McGeorge anticipates 10 or 11 professors will take buyouts, which will free up money to reinvest in student recruitment. After the buyouts, about 28 full-time professors will remain. …He also declined to disclose specific terms of the buyout packages, but said the packages will be the same for professors across the board.According to Law School Transparency, McGeorge's 1L enrollment has fallen 56% from 2010 (from 346 to 152), and its LSAT median has fallen from 158 to 151. Above the Law, Law School Will Slash Faculty By 25 Percent To Free Up Funds

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6figuremistake (Mar 14, 2018 - 12:19 pm)

Too bad that "McGeorge Dominates" guy isn't still around

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2tierreality (Mar 13, 2018 - 1:17 pm)

"The Rankings" are a tool for social positioning amongst academics at law school cocktail parties, deciding which schools are legit national schools for fed clerk and biglaw hiring, and little else.

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wolfman (Mar 13, 2018 - 1:23 pm)

Exactly. T6 didn't change one bit. Georgetown is #14? Really? That's the news? It was #14 the last time I checked, which was a few years back... and hey, I went to a T30 lol school! That and 2.99 gets you a latte.

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trijocker (Mar 13, 2018 - 1:47 pm)

Georgetown uses some unusual loan repay programs for its law students
I don't know how their metrics of gpa/lsat bumped them into top 14.
I know of a few students just admitted and they did not get into any other t 14s.
Remember this school welcomed Tiffany Trump

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/08/09/how-georgetown-law-gets-uncle-sam-to-pay-its-students-bills/?utm_term=.1e92cbdb5bd2

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superttthero (Mar 13, 2018 - 1:53 pm)

I think they also play the transfer game.

At least when I was in law school about 10+ years ago, and if my memory serves me right, they kept their 1L class small and with higher GPA/LSAT numbers and took a huge number of transfers that had to pay in full for two years in order to have that T14 on the resume.

Edit: In 2015 they had 110 transfers.
https://abovethelaw.com/2016/01/which-law-schools-accepted-lost-the-most-students-as-transfers/

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trijocker (Mar 13, 2018 - 2:42 pm)

Would a transfer be eligible for a scholarship?
I know several students who would like to attend Gtown, but are on Pell grants and there is no way to pay that tuition. Perhaps they should go to a inexpensive state law school for 1L and then try to transfer in. However I have read Gtown is extremely stingy with its funds and only a few students get even half tuition scholarships. Does a student of poor means have a chance at Gtown?

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superttthero (Mar 14, 2018 - 12:47 pm)

I have no idea, but my guess is that there is virtually zero money for transfers.

They keep the LSAT/GPA numbers high via a small 1L class, then pay the bills, cushy professor and admin salaries with the transfers.

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inho2solo (Mar 14, 2018 - 1:41 pm)

Pull their required disclosures and see how many non-1L students have tuition discounts; should be able to draw some info on potential transfer discounts from the numbers.

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trijocker (Mar 14, 2018 - 3:12 pm)

Where do you find their required disclosures as to tuition discounts?

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inho2solo (Mar 14, 2018 - 3:55 pm)

It's been a while since I've dug up this kind of stuff, but going from memory you should be able to find a link to these displayed on any ABA school's website front page. Just word search it for "ABA Required Disclosures" (I believe they're told to use that specific identifier, and I believe they are required to be linked from the front page. If not, go to the Finances page).

There should be data provided on how many 1Ls get discounts, how many are 0-25%, 25-50, etc. etc. Also should be similar data on how many total students have discounts with similar breakdowns. I don't recall if it mentions transfers specifically (doubt it), but if the amount of total students getting discounts is > 3X the 1Ls, then you might be able to at least get some directional info from this. Of course, the info will be confounded by 2Ls who had a 1L year discount and lost it, but schools are also supposed to report how many students lose their discounts.

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wearyattorney (Mar 13, 2018 - 2:38 pm)

The Tiers that matter:

1) HYS- you can go, but if you got in, there are options in law that are far better for you and with the same level of prestige.

2) top 4-8- You probably can go, but if you got in, you probably have better options outside of law and with the same level of prestige.

3)top 9-14- You probably shouldn’t go unless you are rich, but you aren’t a complete idiot for trying. You may have other options that are better outside of law and with the same level of prestige. You do have other options outside of law that will be better for you, even though the prestige might be less.

T15-50- You shouldn’t go if you aren’t rich. If you pay for it, you are being very careless for going, and if you have a scholarship, you are being mildly irresponsible and probably wasting your time.

T51-T100- You shouldn’t go if you aren’t rich. You are being reckless if you pay for it, and careless if you go with a scholarship. It’s likely going to hurt you, just a matter of degree.

T101-150- You really shouldn’t go if you aren’t rich. If you pay for it, you are behaving with criminal level negligence with respect to yourself, and if you have a scholarship, you are being reckless.

T151-200- Even if you are rich, you are probably hurting yourself to some degree. If you aren’t rich, you are criminally insane for paying for it, and behaving with criminal negligence towards yourself if you go with a scholarship.

Unranked- If you want to go to an unranked law school, and you aren’t a foreigner, you should go. We need to cull the gene pool at this point. If you go, it might be good for the breeding of the human race, as you’ll likely not be able to breed by going.

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onehell (Mar 13, 2018 - 7:26 pm)

Good but needs simplifying. I'd go like this:

HYSCCN: Go.

Rest of top 14: Go. But if you bomb OCI, drop out immediately.

Rest of top 100 follows the rule of 100 (sub 100k debt or 100 percent chance of job from connections)

Unranked: No just no.

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onehell (Mar 13, 2018 - 7:27 pm)

[double post]

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massivemissive (Mar 14, 2018 - 12:58 pm)

I would add that you shouldn't go to any law school at full price unless you're wealthy. Current tuition at Harvard is $63k with an estimated cost of yearly attendance of $95k.


That's $300k for a degree that might get you a $160k salary.

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6figuremistake (Mar 14, 2018 - 3:57 pm)

Right, it would probably be better to take a free ride from Columbia than take on a mortgage to go to Harvard. Sure, you trade a little bit of the guarantee of a prestigious job for the lower cost, but it's just irresponsible to borrow that much even for a Harvard diploma.

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inho2solo (Mar 14, 2018 - 5:29 pm)

What does it take to get a free ride at Columbia? 4.0, 180, plus 10 years of building houses for poverty-ridden Guatemalans (or similar softs)?

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wolfman (Mar 14, 2018 - 5:54 pm)

Haha, I was waitlisted in Columbia, but did not get in there (or any T14s, for that matter, although most of these were flat rejections, and Columbia was a WL, go figure). T25 with a half-scholarship is just as good, right? RIGHT? Jobless at graduation, took me a year to find a go-nowhere JD-preferred job for 42K, then more unemployment/doc review followed by a paralegal gig. Haha LOL.

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inho2solo (Mar 14, 2018 - 6:11 pm)

Never applied anywhere in the T6, so was wondering what it would take (not to get in, but to get full tuition discount) at a Columbia.

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wolfman (Mar 14, 2018 - 6:33 pm)

I personally knew someone who got into Columbia with a scholarship a few years ago; he had a 173-175 LSAT, and a high GPA (3.7 or something I think) as a chemistry major at a good (public) university; I don't think he is typical though (he wasn't much of an SJW and did not do much "public service" to my knowledge; I'm also pretty sure his scholarship was at least partially need-based (he did not come from money). Does Columbia even give non-need based aid? It's hard to begrudge someone like that his Columbia admission+scholly... I wonder how well he will fit in with a majority of his classmates though.

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6figuremistake (Mar 15, 2018 - 8:44 am)

Columbia offers a Hamilton scholarship based upon merit, which I think covers full tuition:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=281848

"I believe the general consensus is a 3.8+/174+ for a Hamilton, which would mean above both 75ths. Being at both 75ths probably gives you a good chance at a Butler, but there are plenty of threads on here that go into more detail than I can recall offhand."

You'd pretty much need to have the credentials for HYS to get it. While it's easier to coast at the big three and land a top tier job, unless you're from a wealthy family, borrowing a quarter million doesn't make sense vs. going for free to Columbia.

If you're good enough for the scholarship, you'll probably do well enough to land a solid job at graduation.

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onehell (Mar 20, 2018 - 1:55 pm)

Well yes, it is indeed possible that you could end up in biglaw and STILL qualify for IBR, at least in the early years. Remember though, entry-level biglaw salary is just that: Entry level. A few years in and a few rounds of bonuses and you'll still pay down even 300k if you're at least somewhat frugal.

Also, the simple fact is that the "Big H" will follow you for the rest of your life, opening doors you didn't even know were there. Even if you don't want to be a lawyer, a JD from HYS is probably the only JD where the fabled "versatility" actually exists. I guess MAYBE if you already went to Harvard UG, you may already have the prestige and can just go work your way up at an ibank or whatever. But if you came from big state U and were just some kind of LSAT-savant? You'd be a fool to do almost anything else.

So I stick by it: If you get into HYS Law, go. Med school would probably be about the only other option that, if available, would be worth considering. I wouldn't forego HYS even for CCN at full ride. At that level, the rule is simple: Go to the highest-ranked law school you can get into. There are no other considerations.

I don't care if it costs a million bucks. It's never not worth it, at least not as long as IBR is an option. Harvard also has an extremely generous loan repayment assistance program called LIPP (low income protection) where they cover all or most of your loan payments in almost ANY job, for-profit or otherwise, law-related or otherwise, if it doesn't pay enough.

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wearyattorney (Mar 20, 2018 - 7:18 pm)

If you can get into HYS, there are other options. Law is going to get worse and worse and worse. Every single year getting a decent job gets harder and retaining a decent job gets even harder. There are plenty of HYS washouts after 10 or more years post-graduation.

Med school is one option and busienss school is another. If you compare apples to apples, a person with the ability to get into HYS has superior options.

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dingbat (Mar 21, 2018 - 4:33 pm)

Yale will repay loans for any grad who doesn’t make enough

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trijocker (Mar 14, 2018 - 1:39 pm)

The problem with these warnings is only JDUers are reading this.
I just received an email from one of my undergrads asking what the Florida Coastal School of Law is.
Apparently they are onsite interviewing at a top ten public university. Undergrads with a low no combination of LSAT/GPA might just apply and go anywhere, without checking employmment stats.

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3lol (Mar 13, 2018 - 9:48 pm)

I can discern that my school has yet to find it's way back into the top 100.

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thirdtierlaw (Mar 14, 2018 - 3:38 pm)

That does raise the important question for those who are prestige obsessed in our profession. Hypothetically, if your school jumped from the low 100s up to the top 100, what T school do you claim you attended?

For those considering law school, that is a trick question, there is practically no difference between a school ranked 80 and a school ranked 110.

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onehell (Mar 14, 2018 - 5:09 pm)

There's no real difference, but spin it however you want so long as it is not an actual lie.

For example, let's say you went to a school that was ranked #23 when you were admitted, #26 when you graduated, and #30 now. But in your 2L year it randomly ended up at #20 for whatever reason. I think it's fair to say you went to a "top 20 school" and if questioned, just say "that's what it was ranked when I attended."

Not saying to use the highest rank it has ever attained, but using the higher of its current rank or the highest rank it attained at any point from your admission to your graduation seems fair because if anyone questions it, you'll have an easy explanation.

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thirdtierlaw (Mar 14, 2018 - 5:42 pm)

Yea you're probably right. My school will never crack the top 50 much less top 20, well unless there is some horrific event that only leaves 20 schools remaining in the country.

It'll honestly never matter to me. My school is what it is, no matter where it was ranked, I just wanted to make sure I won't ever need to change my username haha.

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wolfman (Mar 14, 2018 - 5:51 pm)

My situation exactly. I technically attended a top 25 law school per that logic LOL (and I think it was even in the top 20 one year when I was there). No one cares.

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3lol (Mar 14, 2018 - 6:46 pm)

Frankly it doesn't matter. At this point, I can only rely on my past and future work experience (and certainly not my academic pedigree) to get me ahead. The school I went to only matters locally in the sense that other lawyers might have gone to the same school, but if I were to leave the NY metro, it would do me no favor and possibly work against me.

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physicssezno (Mar 13, 2018 - 11:26 pm)

Lol they all teach the same thing.

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mnjd (Mar 14, 2018 - 6:17 pm)

Mine was ranked 140 last time I checked! Now its rank is not being published. Don't see them climbing any higher.

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jdcumlaude (Mar 15, 2018 - 7:57 am)

Campbell made it into the 140s the year after they moved to Raleigh NC....after that they dropped to RNP...oh well the scam continues.

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greenhorn (Mar 14, 2018 - 7:23 pm)

Does it really make a difference whether you attended school #44 or school #45 lol ?

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irishlaw (Mar 14, 2018 - 8:41 pm)

Lol I just realized this thread has more than twice the number of posts than the law school ranking thread on top law school, which in the past would go on for pages....just shows how dead that site is now.

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triplesix (Mar 15, 2018 - 8:40 am)

It's a data mining operation, jdu holds the online soul of the legal profession.

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thedarkscrivener (Mar 15, 2018 - 9:19 am)

UCI: 21
Chapman: 139

Haha

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3lol (Mar 15, 2018 - 10:57 am)

When I see the name of Gonzaga, I think of the town of Gongaga in FFVII, every time.

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pauperesq (Mar 15, 2018 - 11:16 am)

The rankings haven't mattered for a while now. HYS are virtual locks for success and the rest of T14 gives you great odds. Every other school is a roll of the dice.

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anothernjlawyer (Mar 20, 2018 - 3:13 pm)

Don't go unless the answers to 2 out of 3 are "yes":

1) You get into HYS
2) You can graduate with under 100K in total educational debt
3) You have a parent who is a hiring partner or who can otherwise guarantee you a non sh!tlaw lawyer job upon graduation

OR

Your current employer is willing to pay your tuition while you work full time and attend school part time.

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