Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

What Happened To Your Black Classmates?

There were three black students in my 1L small section at a passportfan303/17/18
I don't know. I think he moved out of state. The other one d fettywap03/17/18
They run the gamut. One is unemployed, another in some asbes 3lol03/17/18
Me and my my classmates did pretty well. A lot went into big bucwild03/17/18
Lol I didn't keep tabs on them. But I know three are sol isthisit03/17/18
Out of the 3 I remember, 2 dropped out, and 1 works for a DA guyingorillasuit03/18/18
I remember 6 who graduated (at least half as many dropped ou wolfman03/18/18
Let's just be honest.Very few blacks excelled in biglaw mrlollipop03/18/18
I don't know anything about biglaw, but I have worked with g guyingorillasuit03/18/18
"but I have worked with good black attorneys, solos and smal mrlollipop03/18/18
Let's just be honest. Very few people excel in biglaw. bucwild03/19/18
Yep. Using partnership as a guideline, it's something like wutwutwut03/19/18
The most famous (he graduated long before me) is the #2 at t dieter03/18/18
Wolfman makes a key distinction. At least half of the "black williamdrayton03/18/18
All of my black former classmates work either in biglaw or i shikes03/18/18
This is a racist question. tcpaul03/18/18
My high school student body president was black but he move trijocker03/18/18
I think they had pretty similar outcomes to most other stude sillydood03/18/18
You think that your black classmates have similar career out passportfan303/18/18
As far as I recall all my black classmates got biglaw/clerks sillydood03/18/18
I had two black friends in law school. The woman dropped ou shuiz03/18/18
Ha, that reminds me... at my T25 law school orientation, the wolfman03/18/18
Racist asshats. All of you porochi03/18/18
Are you surprised? So many struggling attorneys frequent thi yulacu03/18/18
I was doing doc review at S&C, the bluest of the blue in NYC cantimaginenocountry03/18/18
Who exactly is blaming minorities in this thread? Can you po guyingorillasuit03/18/18
What’s the point of the question? It’s dog whistle polit yulacu03/18/18
Agreed. It's racist. But it doesn't surprise me. Much of wha tcpaul03/18/18
I am sure you feel that you're competent to discern the inte guyingorillasuit03/18/18
Conclusions yes. Unwarranted no. This overtly racist thread porochi03/18/18
If you think that's some kind of an insult, I am sorry for y guyingorillasuit03/18/18
Your deflection would make Trump proud. But this thread rea porochi03/19/18
I started this thread to see whether or not the experiences passportfan303/18/18
Nothing theoretical about racism. Give it whatever pseudo ac porochi03/18/18
In order for you to gather annecdotal evidence to support th yulacu03/19/18
Amazing, isn't it? 1984-style thought policing at its finest wolfman03/19/18
One girl I knew was arrogant and insufferable - mom was alre dupednontraditional03/19/18
I don't think I saw much of this "mismatch" phenomenon at my wutwutwut03/19/18
Julius LeVonne Chambers was an American lawyer, civil rights taxman12803/20/18
I'm black and I think this thread is the perfect example of kemken03/27/18
I agree with your post. A lot of posters on this site are fa bucwild03/27/18
Well note who the OP is for this thread. Despite how many pe 3lol03/27/18
Lame ass whites are always offended, it is in their DNA. The triplesix03/27/18
It is a bit more nuanced. Some of the posters here may undo wearyattorney03/27/18
You're on to something re: class rather than race. I'll make flyer1403/27/18
To reply to the OP: 1) Guy. He told yarns about he attend flyer1403/27/18
you guys had black classmates in law school? johnsmith03/27/18
About 15 to 18% of my class (280 1L's) were black students. cacrimdefense03/27/18
I never saw a black male student on my law school campus in johnsmith04/02/18
I attended a LS south of the Mason-Dixon Line, where African cacrimdefense04/04/18
This thread is both disgusting and disturbing. Can’t we al notiers03/27/18
#metoo triplesix03/27/18
#metoo We ought to be better than this. nyclawyer03/27/18
Answering objectively, a lot of doc review, some DA/PD, one tdkerabatsos03/30/18
I will add a piece of anecdata that may or may not be instru williamdrayton03/31/18
A lot of racist Whites are not smart enough (or non racist e bizzybone131303/31/18
White people don't just "get stuff" for just being white. Su junkwired03/31/18
You don't? I stopped at a boy scouts coffee stand along a hi gladigotaphdinstead04/01/18
White Privilege Shapes the U.S. by Robert Jensen Departm bizzybone131304/02/18
This is total nonesense. Rich white people have the privele wearyattorney04/02/18
Not sure how a personal essay, and not a very convincing one junkwired04/02/18
They're still black. whiskeymystic03/31/18
Haha, I'd normally be the last person to put something like wolfman04/02/18
What about black proofs and Deans?! They are killing it b triplesix04/02/18
Fraudsters notoriously cooperate across national, ethnic, an wolfman04/02/18
If you are a straight white male, it’s hard to understand pisces21304/03/18

passportfan3 (Mar 17, 2018 - 8:13 pm)

There were three black students in my 1L small section at a T14.

The guy dropped out.

One woman graduated but was obviously miserable and overwhelmed by the academics. I can't find her online.

One woman graduated easily, practiced at a large firm for a few years, and then worked as a diversity officer/firm spokeswoman.

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fettywap (Mar 17, 2018 - 9:47 pm)

I don't know. I think he moved out of state. The other one did criminal law and became a county court judge, but he wasn't reelected.

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3lol (Mar 17, 2018 - 10:16 pm)

They run the gamut. One is unemployed, another in some asbestos crapfirm I think, another near the top of the class went fedclerk and biglaw. Obviously I don't keep track of whole demographic groups. Not prestigious school.

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bucwild (Mar 17, 2018 - 10:41 pm)

Me and my my classmates did pretty well. A lot went into biglaw/fed clerkships. I went from consulting---> IP. Most of the biglaw folks are starting to go inhouse. A few went into ID and public defense, but even they seem to have moved on to greener pastures.

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isthisit (Mar 17, 2018 - 11:56 pm)

Lol I didn't keep tabs on them.

But I know three are solos/small law, one is big law, and another got a position in an agency.

I don't know what happened to the others.

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guyingorillasuit (Mar 18, 2018 - 12:25 am)

Out of the 3 I remember, 2 dropped out, and 1 works for a DA's office. That last guy was also president of a secondary journal.

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wolfman (Mar 18, 2018 - 2:12 am)

I remember 6 who graduated (at least half as many dropped out) of whom only one could be called a full-fledged regular black American, interestingly enough... although I'm sure all 6 checked the right box. Interesting outcomes (two men and four women from a T25 school):

1) Black girl, from a prominent black family with money in the DC area. Fed gov atty job through family connections (told me so herself), later BigLaw associate, later non-law but executive jobs at various black-related nonprofits, still in one now, vocal in black causes but reasonable, unmarried, kid out of wedlock, but seems happy enough... only one with good grades, at least according to gossip.

2) Really pretty half-white girl (white Dad), did doc review, followed by an in-house job at a big corporation, followed by having kids and no longer working. Very white culturally, hung out with white people only in school. Entered law school while dating a white med student at a nearby med school, broke up with him, started dating a different white med student, later married him. Doctor's wife now.

3) Another half-white girl (Jewish Dad), also culturally white (ran Jewish students group). Long-term doc review, met and married Jewish guy, had kid, no longer working.

4) Half-white dood (white dad, estranged from family). Struggled academically and barely graduated (although actually smart - and it's me saying that). Never practiced as far as I know, used to post on Facebook about various business ventures like selling expensive booze and cigars... then decided to become a "scientist" and study something with science/math at grad level; I actually gave him pointers about taking basic prereqs in math and chemistry, and offered help. Later deleted all social media and disappeared. Wonder what he is doing now.

5) African girl who came here for an LLM, stayed to get a JD, was literally crazy upset and suicidal about not getting a job at graduation (I don't blame her, think of all that extra debt) did the worst kind of craplaw in NYC, followed by doc review, followed, after years, by a staff position in Biglaw, which I think she still has. Had long-distance older African bf during LS, while having sex with white guys. Would not date US black guys. Nice girl, I felt bad for her... EDIT: she is listed as an associate on her firm's website now (small branch office), so things must be going well for her. Looks like she actually went back to Africa, and then came back to US.

6) African dood who came here for an LLM. Scammed landlord out of rent, scammed other local black and white do-gooders out of money through some Christian-church related boondoggle (all this came out later). I could not stand being in the same room with him, as he was so obviously a con man. Received LLM in a year and immediately vanished. I really hope he went back to Africa and/or is being currently deported there.

These are just anecdotes, of course, but I think they do illustrate at least one point: VERY few people in even semi-elite places (and mine wasn't particulrly elite) are anything that resembles a median American black person, which makes the arguments for race-based "affirmative action" in law school admissions ring particularly hollow IMHO.

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mrlollipop (Mar 18, 2018 - 6:52 am)

Let's just be honest.Very few blacks excelled in biglaw

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guyingorillasuit (Mar 18, 2018 - 1:43 pm)

I don't know anything about biglaw, but I have worked with good black attorneys, solos and small firm partners.

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mrlollipop (Mar 18, 2018 - 10:44 pm)

"but I have worked with good black attorneys, solos and small firm partners"

And that's my point

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bucwild (Mar 19, 2018 - 8:07 am)

Let's just be honest. Very few people excel in biglaw.

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wutwutwut (Mar 19, 2018 - 1:00 pm)

Yep. Using partnership as a guideline, it's something like 5% at a place like Cravath, and I don't think it exceeds 8-10% at any biglaw firm.

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dieter (Mar 18, 2018 - 7:36 am)

The most famous (he graduated long before me) is the #2 at the DNC. His reputation in the local legal community was terrible - a total joke as an attorney.

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williamdrayton (Mar 18, 2018 - 8:26 am)

Wolfman makes a key distinction. At least half of the "black" students at elite colleges and graduate/professional schools fall into one of three categories: 1. Biracial (Barry Dunham).
2. first or second generation immigrants from Africa or the Caribbean.
3. Actually from Africa or the Caribbean.

This phenomenon got some media attention and even academic studies about 10-12 years ago. The schools live to put a "black" face on their brochures but do little to admit disadvantaged descendants of slaves who are the purported beneficiaries of affirmative action.
The numbers are sometimes more than half. The really tricky part is parsing out the Caribbeans - they don't all have heavy accents and are likely to be named "John Smith", rather than "Eberechukwu Nduklu".

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shikes (Mar 18, 2018 - 11:45 am)

All of my black former classmates work either in biglaw or in-house.

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tcpaul (Mar 18, 2018 - 2:01 pm)

This is a racist question.

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trijocker (Mar 18, 2018 - 2:15 pm)

My high school student body president was black
but he moved to Venice and died of aids.
His photo is always up at reunions and we do a toast in his memory.

I don't remember any black students at college except the one that danced in the dorm quad nightly.

My law school was mostly all jewish students, it didn't offer scholarships so I assume URMS went elsewhere.

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sillydood (Mar 18, 2018 - 4:07 pm)

I think they had pretty similar outcomes to most other students, but the numbers were tiny.

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passportfan3 (Mar 18, 2018 - 4:52 pm)

You think that your black classmates have similar career outcomes to your Jewish classmates?

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sillydood (Mar 18, 2018 - 11:24 pm)

As far as I recall all my black classmates got biglaw/clerkship or the like.

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shuiz (Mar 18, 2018 - 5:26 pm)

I had two black friends in law school. The woman dropped out first year. At the time, it surprised me. Now I think she was smart. The man graduated and is working small law.

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wolfman (Mar 18, 2018 - 6:01 pm)

Ha, that reminds me... at my T25 law school orientation, there was a much older (white) woman (50s) and a jacked (white) guy about my age who had recently returned from Iraq where he had been an infantry officer (apparently, he served in combat and may have been wounded - this is from folks Googling him, confirmed by other vets in my class, not from him bragging; wish I remembered what his name was).

Both dropped out within two weeks; I heard the officer guy actually took offense to how he was talked to in 1L torts - which sounds kinda crazy, I guess. At the time my thought was "oh man these people have problems."

Not a week goes by now when I don't wish I had done what they did (or at least dropped out after 1L, which I actually thought of doing). They were smart and it's me who's had "problems" after staying in to get my JD. Live and learn, haha.

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porochi (Mar 18, 2018 - 8:42 pm)

Racist asshats. All of you

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yulacu (Mar 18, 2018 - 9:02 pm)

Are you surprised? So many struggling attorneys frequent this board. It was only a matter of time before they blamed minorities rather than their own mediocrity for their lot in life. Cuz you know a black kid is the only reason they didn’t get in at a T14 with their 160 LSAT and PoliSci degree.

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cantimaginenocountry (Mar 18, 2018 - 9:47 pm)

I was doing doc review at S&C, the bluest of the blue in NYC, back in in 1999 and a black associate was in charge of the doc reviewers for this Hart Scott Rodino 2nd request. We were dealing with a factory Brno and the guy constantly called it BORNEO! Google them both and see that they are 10k miles apart and totally different but I digress..........the end product of a faux education.

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guyingorillasuit (Mar 18, 2018 - 9:48 pm)

Who exactly is blaming minorities in this thread? Can you point out a post?

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yulacu (Mar 18, 2018 - 10:12 pm)

What’s the point of the question? It’s dog whistle politics. None of the posters are actually concerned about the welfare of their black classmates. It’s “very few blacks excelled at Biglaw,” or “he was a total joke as an attorney.” This coupled with the posts on the Penn Law professor’s statements and the sheer number of desperate unemployed or underemployed posters speaks volumes about the intent of this question.

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tcpaul (Mar 18, 2018 - 10:25 pm)

Agreed. It's racist. But it doesn't surprise me. Much of what I see on JDU is racist, sexist, or homophobic.

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guyingorillasuit (Mar 18, 2018 - 10:58 pm)

I am sure you feel that you're competent to discern the intent of people you have never met, and with whom you have never corresponded, based on your characterization of them as "desperate unemployed or underemployed." That troubles me. I don't know any Penn law professors, and I am not familiar with the terms "dog whistle politics". I do know that you're quick to come to unwarranted conclusions about random internet strangers. If any posters here really are unemployed or underemployed, does that mean they are more open to attack by you? Does that mean they are more likely to be racist? Does that mean someone marginally employed is less worthy of your respect on an anonymous internet board? If they had better careers, would you be less likely to judge them?

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porochi (Mar 18, 2018 - 11:11 pm)

Conclusions yes. Unwarranted no. This overtly racist thread speaks for itself. If you can't discern that then here's another conclusion: you didn't fare well on the reading comprehension section of the LSAT

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guyingorillasuit (Mar 18, 2018 - 11:57 pm)

If you think that's some kind of an insult, I am sorry for you. There are lots of good lawyers doing honest work who didn't "fare well on the reading comprehension section of the LSAT". Lots of new law school matriculants didn't fare well in that section. You disparage people in our profession who scored lower than you did on an admissions test, and you feel no sense of shame about it. I ask you to re-examine your understanding of "overt racism". No one in this thread disparaged minorities the way you and some other posters unabashedly disparaged other posters as being unemployed, unqualified, and somehow less worthy than you are.

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porochi (Mar 19, 2018 - 12:54 am)

Your deflection would make Trump proud. But this thread really isn't about unemployment, lack of qualifications, test scores, etc. It's about the skin color of some members of our profession.
Considering our training, we should be well beyond that, but apparently not.

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passportfan3 (Mar 18, 2018 - 11:22 pm)

I started this thread to see whether or not the experiences of others supported the mismatch theory.

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porochi (Mar 18, 2018 - 11:35 pm)

Nothing theoretical about racism. Give it whatever pseudo academic sounding name you want, the ugly racism of your lame thread comes crashing through. Sad.

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yulacu (Mar 19, 2018 - 7:21 am)

In order for you to gather annecdotal evidence to support the mismatch theory, wouldn’t that require posters to include the school they went to or at the very least the ranking? How can you make a conclusion whether black students are harmed by being admitted to prestigious institutions with the annecdotal statements of anonymous posters? Or, are you suggesting that black students are harmed by being admitted to any law school? The replies don’t seem to answer your question if the mismatch theory was the original intent behind your post.

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wolfman (Mar 19, 2018 - 3:05 am)

Amazing, isn't it? 1984-style thought policing at its finest.

A thoughtful and polite discussion of what actually happens to black J.D. grads (sorely needed since the need to keep pumping out more and more of these grads is increasingly used by the professoriate and the decanate as THE justification to keep the scam going) is now "racist" and only engaged in by academically and intellectually inferior bitter losers.

Of course, this is EXACTLY how the scam works and why it is so successful - those who promote it and the fellow travelers and enablers have NO interest in discussion; the sole goal is to make the opposition shut up by making them out to be troglodytes guilty of thought crimes and sad sorry losers into the bargain.

It has worked for decades all across the media and the culture, with untold riches for the scammers and debt, destitution, failure, poverty, mental illness, addiction, and too often death for the victims, black and white, not to mention the terrible waste of human intellect, hope, and potential. Hopefully, it won't work on JDU.

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dupednontraditional (Mar 19, 2018 - 1:14 pm)

One girl I knew was arrogant and insufferable - mom was already an attorney, big fish/small pond kind of issue. Did really well because of the inside track, no worries or money problems, etc.

Worked big law for a few years, now mid-level management at an ediscovery/doc review/consulting place. One of the success stories from my negative-tier institution.

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wutwutwut (Mar 19, 2018 - 1:23 pm)

I don't think I saw much of this "mismatch" phenomenon at my school, which was a tier 2 perennially hoping to break into tier 1 and had tight LSAT distributions, with only 3 points between 25th and 75th, and all over 160.

That doesn't mean we couldn't have had an entire quarter of the class down around 142, of course. But although the school gets high marks for diversity, it also really prides itself on high bar passage rates, about half the time besting both of the top 25 schools in state. That's not going to happen if you admit a bunch of mismatched students. At least I don't think it would.

I don't know much about individual outcomes, black or white. The 3 classmates who impressed me as being particularly not qualified to be there (from class discussions clearly having conceptual difficulties) were an older white guy, young black man (both of whom were among our very few drops) and one significantly older white woman who was in her 50s, but who managed to nevertheless muddle through and graduate. Her husband was some kind of high-ranking corporate legal VP, so I'm guessing she had help studying at home.

I obviously didn't know too many people outside those who were in classes with me, but I don't have much reason to assume other sections differed.

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taxman128 (Mar 20, 2018 - 1:43 pm)

Julius LeVonne Chambers was an American lawyer, civil rights leader and educator. I graduated the following year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_L._Chambers

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kemken (Mar 27, 2018 - 11:13 am)

I'm black and I think this thread is the perfect example of implicit bias.Would you ever ask such a question to black people about their white classmates? My white classmates fared much worse than many of my fellow black students. I am not sure why some white people on this site find it necessary to track the progress of blacks in academia or certain professions when there are plenty of white people failing, being mediocre, or just not being successful. Just look at this website for proof of that fact.

Take a look at our current President, who is probably the most basic, mediocre, uninformed, and ignorant white man alive right now. And yet, he was deemed fit to be our president. I think that you have plenty to worry about if you solely focus on how your white classmates did after law school; there's plenty of failure there to explore. Better yet, stop worrying so much about how minorities are performing in law school and focus on your own careers.

I went to school with many white people who looked at my skin and thought I'd never succeed, had gotten in only because of affirmative action, or would never become an actual attorney. Needless to say, I defied all of the odds when I graduated with honors, passed the bar the first time, and currently work an in-house position for a multi-billion dollar corporation.

Let's not even talk about the white people in my class who dropped out, lost their scholarships, or were rock stars in undergrad and had their dreams crushed after the first semester of 1L year.

As a black person, I am not here to educate you or prove myself to anyone who has backwards ideas of the "worth" of black people or what they can and cannot accomplish. I know that when I walk into rooms, many people question what I am doing there and if I really am competent enough to advise them. I am sure some of those same people think just like the people on this thread.

It's also very interesting how white people started this "polite thread," talk about black people like they are exhibits in a zoo, and then have the nerve to get offended when called out on their implicitly racist statements and conclusions. Please. If you think that this question was not racist or that I am overreacting, get a reality check.

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bucwild (Mar 27, 2018 - 11:21 am)

I agree with your post. A lot of posters on this site are failed attorneys and will look to any excuse to rationalize their failures, other than "I simply wasn't that good/smart". A few days ago, someone posted about how easy it was to get into UT as a URM, citing some admissions data graph. Nobody on the thread seemed to notice that the same graph showed multiple non URMs gaining admittance with the same low LSAT/GPAs.

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3lol (Mar 27, 2018 - 12:38 pm)

Well note who the OP is for this thread. Despite how many people answered, it was clearly a loaded question to begin with, and for that we can blame passportfan

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triplesix (Mar 27, 2018 - 11:48 am)

Lame ass whites are always offended, it is in their DNA. They use it as a defensive mechanism to cover up their crappy behaviors while putting you down for being "poorly socialized"

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wearyattorney (Mar 27, 2018 - 1:15 pm)

It is a bit more nuanced. Some of the posters here may undoubtedly be racist. They are trying to imply that black people are somewhat less capable than their white counterparts, which is racist.

But others have a completely legitimate point of view.

For example, from my perspective, race is used as a tool for the higher education scam, and particularly the law school scam, to continue. The law school position is if you aren’t for unlimited and federally guaranteed student loans rolling into the coffers of law schools, well then you are a racist. If you aren’t for reducing the passing score for the bar exam in every jurisdiction in the United States (because smart kids of every kind of race, color, sex and creed stopped going with the same frequency), well then you are a racist. To me, it has nothing to do with the competency of any one group because as you correctly noted there are failures of all shapes, sizes and colors, just as there are successes. However, the primary nuclear weapon, today, of the higher education industrial complex is to assert that any attempt to control costs or retain standards is racist. Of course it’s a con. Pass rates aren’t dropping because black people or other minority groups are less competent than whites, as stated, the smart kids of all kinds have foregone going. If they find a single minority success case, it justifies the entire student loan system, even if there are legions of failures (both white and minority) otherwise. Look at the recent article about the white convicted felon with mental illness issues that went to law school, and the subsequent mayhem that ensued.

There is a reason that one of the most brilliant self made jurists on the Supreme Court, who happens to be black, is a hardcore conservative. There is also a reason he is the only one that hires clerks from all backgrounds and from all schools unlike his peers. He knows the con job very well.

I think you will agree with me on the above point. Here is one point where we are likely to disagree. I know plenty of lower class (economically)white failures because they are incompetent. I know plenty of lower class (economically) minority failures because they are incompetent. Now here’s where the nuance comes in: I know plenty of extremely competent Asian and white lower class (economically) professionals that are failing, but not almost no competent minorities from lower socioeconomic backgrounds that fail.

The system is designed to discriminate by class. In ten seconds, a guy who went to Chote, Harvard and whose father and grandfather has a country club membership is going to detect a person that isn’t similarly situated. In fact, anyone with serious inherited ownership assets is going to be able to tell whether someone is similarly situated or not. Those people want to discriminate against people not like them, whether they are black or white, for a whole host of reasons not worth addressing right now. (And the discriminator can be either white or black).

Imagine the following review. Jim Thorpe from West Virginia is told by Chad Wadsworth (his manager) that although he has met every single one of his slotted objectives for the quarter, nay he has exceeded them spectacularly, he will not be receiving a promotion or a raise because he lacks that “it” factor. He lacks that special sauce if you will.

Now... can you honestly tell me that Chad can tell Mike Jackson from Providence the same kind of thing if Mike performs in a similar fashion? The law suit that would ensue, and rightfully so, would be epic, but it would be based on race. Chad doesn’t dislike either Mike or Jim based on race, he doesn’t like them because he views them as upstarts encroaching on his territory. He can legally screw Jim, he can’t legally screw Mike.

Racists like to make it seem like there are loads of incompetent minorities getting jobs over whites all over the place. There aren’t. Chad will screw an incompetent minority (because he has the excuse to do so) as fast as hell screw a competent white, and he won’t be doing so because based on competence, but because he can. The law protects competent minorities from this kind of behavior, but it doesn’t protect competent whites. This is used by racists and demagogues to make very racist and overreaching generalizations.

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flyer14 (Mar 27, 2018 - 1:23 pm)

You're on to something re: class rather than race. I'll make an OT poast about it shortly.

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flyer14 (Mar 27, 2018 - 12:47 pm)

To reply to the OP:

1) Guy. He told yarns about he attended as many as four different universities for undergrad depending on when you caught him, admitted he was on a full ride "because I'm black", and went on to fail the bar exam three or four times. Passed eventually. Went on somehow to work briefly for a firm until they found out he had falsified something on his undergrad degree and got canned. Ran for Congress but didn't make it past the Democrat primary.

2) Guy. Dropped out after 1L year. I believe he manages an Applebees in a neighboring state now. I'd have to follow up with him, actually.

3) Guy. Good friends in law school but had a ton of drama and problems with professors. You know, lots of appeals, lots of brushes with the administration. He passed the UBE in another state after the fifth or sixth try. Worked various paralegal jobs in the meantime, but I haven't spoken much in the last year so I wonder if he ever found a firm job.

4) Girl. Passed the bar on the fourth or fifth try, I forget how many times she took it. Works a day job as a phone customer support person, but I think she makes more money rehabbing houses in the hood.

5) Girl. Never took the bar. Works at a legal research company, posts negative screeds about white people periodically on social media.

6) Girl. Never took the bar. Took time off to have a kid, now works in defense contracting.

7) Girl. Never took the bar. Went straight from law school to defense contracting. I get lunch with her at least once a week and we tire kick about our career ambitions and whatnot.

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johnsmith (Mar 27, 2018 - 1:02 pm)

you guys had black classmates in law school?

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cacrimdefense (Mar 27, 2018 - 3:58 pm)

About 15 to 18% of my class (280 1L's) were black students. I only know what happened to a few, however.

Two (a female from UNC and a male from Troy State) were gone after the first year.

A female from Spelman (who pleaded w/ me to act as a witness in her moot court trial) graduated cum laude.

The guy who was my opponent in an appellate presentation during first year became a JAG (a career military man).

Another dude who could've been a model runs his own plaintiff PI firm (4 lawyers) in FL.

Another girl who did undergrad work at an HBC went to work for the PD offices in Jackson and Hattiesburg.

A female from LSU became a campaign strategist and advisor for Democrats running for office in LA.

The last African-American fellow alumnus, of whom I can think (from my year), is a partner in a mid-law litigation firm in his hometown of Washington D. C.

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johnsmith (Apr 2, 2018 - 12:45 pm)

I never saw a black male student on my law school campus in the 3 years I went there. 2 black women students and 2 black professors- I dont mean not my class, I'm talking about the entire campus.

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cacrimdefense (Apr 4, 2018 - 2:47 pm)

I attended a LS south of the Mason-Dixon Line, where African-Americans reside aplenty.

During the entire 3 years I was in LS, there were a total of 3 Asian law students present on campus (none my year) the same time as I. Being from California, that was weird.

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notiers (Mar 27, 2018 - 4:10 pm)

This thread is both disgusting and disturbing. Can’t we all try to be a little better than this. I’m no SJW - but this thread really rubs me the wrong way.

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triplesix (Mar 27, 2018 - 4:15 pm)

#metoo

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nyclawyer (Mar 27, 2018 - 10:59 pm)

#metoo

We ought to be better than this.

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tdkerabatsos (Mar 30, 2018 - 8:54 pm)

Answering objectively, a lot of doc review, some DA/PD, one in Biglaw, a few work for the big corporation where our law school is located, and the rest have dropped off the map. One guy has a pretend business and lives off family $.

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williamdrayton (Mar 31, 2018 - 9:32 am)

I will add a piece of anecdata that may or may not be instructive. I have extensive doc review experience in two large markets: Metro NYC and Metro Philly. With rare exception, those doc review rooms were consistently 25% - 33% black, sometimes higher. Now the overall bar attorney roster in these areas is likely no more than 5%-10% black. (According to media accounts, DC doc review may have similar demographics) Of course I dont know where folks went to school,rank, GPA, LSAT etc. Etc. I just see the end result. I had a few conversations about this so I was not the only one to notice.
Its very likely the result of a horrid labor market rather than individual incompetence. Also, onehell has previously described law as a tightrope with no margin for error. One false move and you are locked into a career track. This may be more true for blacks without family connections.

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bizzybone1313 (Mar 31, 2018 - 10:51 am)

A lot of racist Whites are not smart enough (or non racist enough) to figure out absent 400+ years of WHITE racism that there would be MORE minorities as lawyers than there currently is. There’s a reason the “U” in URM’s stands for “underrepresented”. In other words, absent any of the racism of 400+ years, virtually ALL Whites really and truly across the board at all levels of higher education would have much more competition for slots in all types of programs.

But like Tim Wise, a world class anti-racist activist states, Whites are so quick to point the finger at affirmative action while conveniently ignoring all the advantages and privileges they receive in every other area of American life: housing, politics, business, etc. Whites get “stuff” their entire lives for being White and they have the audacity to prattle on and on and on about a policy (AA) most don’t even really and truly understand.

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junkwired (Mar 31, 2018 - 9:19 pm)

White people don't just "get stuff" for just being white. Such a bizarre thing to say.

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gladigotaphdinstead (Apr 1, 2018 - 8:09 am)

You don't? I stopped at a boy scouts coffee stand along a highway rest stop yesterday and they gave me a free coffee. No one said so but I think it was obviously because I am white.

(I didn't actually pull over into the rest stop)

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bizzybone1313 (Apr 2, 2018 - 8:26 am)

White Privilege Shapes the U.S.

by Robert Jensen
Department of Journalism
University of Texas

copyright Robert William Jensen 1998
first appeared in the Baltimore Sun, July 19, 1998


Here's what white privilege sounds like:
I am sitting in my University of Texas office, talking to a very bright and very conservative white student about affirmative action in college admissions, which he opposes and I support.

The student says he wants a level playing field with no unearned advantages for anyone. I ask him whether he thinks that in the United States being white has advantages. Have either of us, I ask, ever benefited from being white in a world run mostly by white people? Yes, he concedes, there is something real and tangible we could call white privilege.

So, if we live in a world of white privilege--unearned white privilege--how does that affect your notion of a level playing field? I ask.

He paused for a moment and said, "That really doesn't matter."

That statement, I suggested to him, reveals the ultimate white privilege: the privilege to acknowledge that you have an unearned privilege but ignore what it means.

That exchange led me to rethink the way I talk about race and racism with students. It drove home to me the importance of confronting the dirty secret that we white people carry around with us everyday: In a world of white privilege, some of what we have is unearned. I think much of both the fear and anger that comes up around discussions of affirmative action has its roots in that secret. So these days, my goal is to talk openly and honestly about white supremacy and white privilege.

White privilege, like any social phenomenon, is complex. In a white supremacist culture, all white people have privilege, whether or not they are overtly racist themselves. There are general patterns, but such privilege plays out differently depending on context and other aspects of one's identity (in my case, being male gives me other kinds of privilege). Rather than try to tell others how white privilege has played out in their lives, I talk about how it has affected me.

I am as white as white gets in this country. I am of northern European heritage and I was raised in North Dakota, one of the whitest states in the country. I grew up in a virtually all-white world surrounded by racism, both personal and institutional. Because I didn't live near a reservation, I didn't even have exposure to the state's only numerically significant non-white population, American Indians.

I have struggled to resist that racist training and the ongoing racism of my culture. I like to think I have changed, even though I routinely trip over the lingering effects of that internalized racism and the institutional racism around me. But no matter how much I "fix" myself, one thing never changes--I walk through the world with white privilege.

What does that mean? Perhaps most importantly, when I seek admission to a university, apply for a job, or hunt for an apartment, I don't look threatening. Almost all of the people evaluating me for those things look like me--they are white. They see in me a reflection of themselves, and in a racist world that is an advantage. I smile. I am white. I am one of them. I am not dangerous. Even when I voice critical opinions, I am cut some slack. After all, I'm white.

My flaws also are more easily forgiven because I am white. Some complain that affirmative action has meant the university is saddled with mediocre minority professors. I have no doubt there are minority faculty who are mediocre, though I don't know very many. As Henry Louis Gates Jr. once pointed out, if affirmative action policies were in place for the next hundred years, it's possible that at the end of that time the university could have as many mediocre minority professors as it has mediocre white professors. That isn't meant as an insult to anyone, but is a simple observation that white privilege has meant that scores of second-rate white professors have slid through the system because their flaws were overlooked out of solidarity based on race, as well as on gender, class and ideology.

Some people resist the assertions that the United States is still a bitterly racist society and that the racism has real effects on real people. But white folks have long cut other white folks a break. I know, because I am one of them.

I am not a genius--as I like to say, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I have been teaching full-time for six years, and I've published a reasonable amount of scholarship. Some of it is the unexceptional stuff one churns out to get tenure, and some of it, I would argue, actually is worth reading. I work hard, and I like to think that I'm a fairly decent teacher. Every once in awhile, I leave my office at the end of the day feeling like I really accomplished something. When I cash my paycheck, I don't feel guilty.

But, all that said, I know I did not get where I am by merit alone. I benefited from, among other things, white privilege. That doesn't mean that I don't deserve my job, or that if I weren't white I would never have gotten the job. It means simply that all through my life, I have soaked up benefits for being white. I grew up in fertile farm country taken by force from non-white indigenous people. I was educated in a well-funded, virtually all-white public school system in which I learned that white people like me made this country great. There I also was taught a variety of skills, including how to take standardized tests written by and for white people.

All my life I have been hired for jobs by white people. I was accepted for graduate school by white people. And I was hired for a teaching position at the predominantly white University of Texas, which had a white president, in a college headed by a white dean and in a department with a white chairman that at the time had one non-white tenured professor.

There certainly is individual variation in experience. Some white people have had it easier than me, probably because they came from wealthy families that gave them even more privilege. Some white people have had it tougher than me because they came from poorer families. White women face discrimination I will never know. But, in the end, white people all have drawn on white privilege somewhere in their lives.

Like anyone, I have overcome certain hardships in my life. I have worked hard to get where I am, and I work hard to stay there. But to feel good about myself and my work, I do not have to believe that "merit," as defined by white people in a white country, alone got me here. I can acknowledge that in addition to all that hard work, I got a significant boost from white privilege, which continues to protect me every day of my life from certain hardships.

At one time in my life, I would not have been able to say that, because I needed to believe that my success in life was due solely to my individual talent and effort. I saw myself as the heroic American, the rugged individualist. I was so deeply seduced by the culture's mythology that I couldn't see the fear that was binding me to those myths. Like all white Americans, I was living with the fear that maybe I didn't really deserve my success, that maybe luck and privilege had more to do with it than brains and hard work. I was afraid I wasn't heroic or rugged, that I wasn't special.

I let go of some of that fear when I realized that, indeed, I wasn't special, but that I was still me. What I do well, I still can take pride in, even when I know that the rules under which I work in are stacked in my benefit. I believe that until we let go of the fiction that people have complete control over their fate--that we can will ourselves to be anything we choose--then we will live with that fear. Yes, we should all dream big and pursue our dreams and not let anyone or anything stop us. But we all are the product both of what we will ourselves to be and what the society in which we live lets us be.

White privilege is not something I get to decide whether or not I want to keep. Every time I walk into a store at the same time as a black man and the security guard follows him and leaves me alone to shop, I am benefiting from white privilege. There is not space here to list all the ways in which white privilege plays out in our daily lives, but it is clear that I will carry this privilege with me until the day white supremacy is erased from this society.

Frankly, I don't think I will live to see that day; I am realistic about the scope of the task. However, I continue to have hope, to believe in the creative power of human beings to engage the world honestly and act morally. A first step for white people, I think, is to not be afraid to admit that we have benefited from white privilege. It doesn't mean we are frauds who have no claim to our success. It means we face a choice about what we do with our success.

Jensen is a professor in the Department of Journalism in the University of Texas at Austin.
He can be reached at [email protected]

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wearyattorney (Apr 2, 2018 - 11:04 am)

This is total nonesense. Rich white people have the privelege. Maybe-maybe- a rich white person has an advantage over a rich minority person, but the motive for the discrimination by the rich white isn’t that he or she things the rich minority is inferior, the motive is that he or she is an upstart that needs to be kept down. However, if it’s a multigenerational rich minority person, there’s no discrimination. Russel Simons is probably discriminated against at the country club because he’s an amazing success and he is competing with people that draw economic rents as a birth right, not by merit. They don’t hate him because they think he’s inferior, they hate him because he is an upstart.

A poor white has no advantage over a poor minority . A middle class white has no advantage over a middle class minority . A rich white may have an advantage over a rich minority.

There was a time when race qua race mattered in this country, it doesn’t anymore. It’s about the money, pure and simple.

Poor white people have absolutely no advantages anymore. None. And this bitter reality is why the country is so divided right now and we are headed on a very dangerous road. The super rich understand this very well and they are using it very nicely.

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junkwired (Apr 2, 2018 - 7:27 pm)

Not sure how a personal essay, and not a very convincing one, by yet another self-hating white academic, proves that white people 'get stuff' for being white. The essay is deeply personal poppycock. Not persuaded.

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whiskeymystic (Mar 31, 2018 - 4:58 pm)

They're still black.

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wolfman (Apr 2, 2018 - 1:04 pm)

Haha, I'd normally be the last person to put something like this up, but Morgan Freeman is correct here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONNlmQ98ie4

To add to williaqmdrayton's "anecdata" - as an un-admitted (albeit bar-passed) JD, I have done quite a bit of DR in the NY/NJ/CT tri-state area, and the English language reviews have been real bottom-of-the-barrel, cattle-call, terrible facilities, flooded bathrooms, etc. types that will pay rock-bottom (I never had to go lower than $25/hr, but I would've if I had to)... the reason being that these tend to take unadmitted JDs, while better-paying ones insist of a bar admission.

The English-language reviews I've done have, without a doubt, been at least 40-50% black. In some cases, I was one of the few white guys in the room. This reinforces williamdrayton's point - and suggests that the law school scam is literally destroying the lives of "disadvantaged" groups while law deans and tenured faculty line their pockets with student loan money and prattle on about "social justice" (unless anyone on here thinks working for Hirecounsel where they have two bathroom stalls for seventy people is "success"?)

But any attempt to stop the scam, or at least expose its nature for all to see, as this thread does, is, of course, "racism." We can now return to our regularly scheduled programming, while the scamdeans line their pockets.

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triplesix (Apr 2, 2018 - 1:09 pm)

What about black proofs and Deans?!

They are killing it bro!!!

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wolfman (Apr 2, 2018 - 1:18 pm)

Fraudsters notoriously cooperate across national, ethnic, and racial boundaries, and I don't see why the law school scam participants should be any different.

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pisces213 (Apr 3, 2018 - 9:20 pm)

If you are a straight white male, it’s hard to understand privilege because it will never really hit you unless you have a non-white spouse and biracial children.

If you are gay or female, you have a better chance at understanding white privilege since you see what straight white males don’t have to deal with, although in blue states gay white males have closed the gap significantly as they also get to tick off the “diversity” checkbox.

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