Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

What is motivating all of these people at my doc review job to take it seriously?

I don’t get it. Unless you sh*t on the floor, it’s impo jacob07/20/18
They're trying to code to partner. phillydoucherocket07/20/18
Well, this won't last long. wutwutwut07/20/18
People who ask substantive questions in meetings slow the gr shithead07/20/18
Hahahaha, it’d be one thing if that was their angle, but t jacob07/20/18
Ur attitude is why you'll remain in doc review while ur inqu needajob07/20/18
Somehow I don't think either of them will end up in six figu caj11107/20/18
What a foolish response. You obviously don't know the first zodd07/21/18
I guess they fear making a mistake and have bills to pay. Pl underemployedlawyer07/22/18
How do you code a doc for issues with not thinking? underemployedlawyer07/22/18
Oh, just stop with the sanctimony! Doc review is a "dead patenttrollnj07/24/18
The guy reviewing obnoxiously fast is just going to get his tedandlisa12307/20/18
I call them "supertemps." I did DR for about 6 years after hairypalms07/20/18
Nothing jaded about it, it sure is reality. 6 years doing d caj11107/20/18
Sure. One of my DR assignments ended, I was out of work for hairypalms07/21/18
I did DR for ~4 years deferring debt that maxed out at $280k nonlinearjdmba07/21/18
I am truly happy to read about those that suffered through y themapmaster07/21/18
I agree. There is just no upward mobility at all in DR. Pe hairypalms07/22/18
I find it to be pathetic but for some people, it is to feel dandydan07/23/18
Sometimes, self-delusion can be a good thing. If you think tedandlisa12307/23/18
Iron in those words. esquirewalletsmatter07/23/18
Ahhh, yes, as I so long ago quoted Cheif Ten Bears on this v jbthealmightyprophet07/23/18
Re tedandlisa123's post, I see your point but respectfully d dandydan07/24/18
Yes, but at least these people have somewhere to go in the m tedandlisa12307/24/18
The only thing worse than doc review is managing doc review underemployedlawyer07/23/18
The only thing worse than being rejected for a job in doc re bcls07/24/18
As far back as the L4L days, I can remember people talking a onehell07/23/18
One Hell has always been one of the greatest posters. jbthealmightyprophet07/23/18
People understand that working hard does not necessarily get dandydan07/24/18
The only way up is to first go down. Down to the deepest pit bcls07/24/18
Why people in doc review take it seriously?? Hope They patenttrollnj07/24/18
Everyone wants to think that what they do is important, beca anothernjlawyer07/24/18
Well, the guy flipping burgers at Wendy's actually has a muc onehell07/25/18
The store manager of a cheesecake factor makes 100+. For alo attorneydavid07/29/18
Assuming said burger flipper isn't an unemployed law school patenttrollnj07/26/18
I don’t think realizing a trained monkey being able to do jacob07/24/18
so in your world the only people who should care about their dietcoke07/24/18
No, I’m not here because of an attitude, I am here because jacob07/24/18
You're both speaking about different things. S/he's saying t loser1207/24/18
Just a thought-- don't some of the doc reviewers have a chan cranky07/24/18
They probably do, but like most jobs the question is how man dupednontraditional07/26/18
Okay, the doc review market is busy at the moment (at least bittersweet07/25/18
I am frequently invited to participate on those teams despit jacob07/25/18
The trick to surviving DR is to simultaneously care and not thedarkscrivener07/26/18
Sometimes you have to care just to keep yourself from pickin pisces21307/26/18
This is true in non-doc review work too. loser1207/26/18
How common is a successful exit from long term doc review? N loblawyer07/28/18
I don’t know too many folks who navigated away from DR, bu nonlinearjdmba07/28/18
I make entry level (like 60k-ish) in big 4 after going back joecoder07/29/18
I don't see any exit plan for myself. I like my foreign-lang shithead07/29/18

jacob (Jul 20, 2018 - 3:32 pm)

I don’t get it. Unless you sh*t on the floor, it’s impossible to get fired. All you have to do is stay awake, click a mouse, and make any adjustments if you’re informed you’re making a glaring, unacceptable error.

I don’t understand the constant questions these people ask about substantive issues in the case. I don’t understand why there is always that one queer who reviews at a rate obnoxiously faster than the average rate of review. Considering none of this really matters and there is no risk of losing the job based on your performance, why doesn’t everyone just bill and chill and quietly enjoy podcasts or scroll through their cellphone all day?

Am I missing something?

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phillydoucherocket (Jul 20, 2018 - 8:00 pm)

They're trying to code to partner.

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wutwutwut (Jul 20, 2018 - 3:45 pm)

Well, this won't last long.

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shithead (Jul 20, 2018 - 4:00 pm)

People who ask substantive questions in meetings slow the group's progress. Progress is working yourself closer to being out of a job. Don't complain about people who facilitate your making more money, ingrate.

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jacob (Jul 20, 2018 - 6:26 pm)

Hahahaha, it’d be one thing if that was their angle, but they’re asking questions outside of meetings as well. Always calling the project manager over to ask something, or asking each other. Like who careeeesssssss?

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needajob (Jul 20, 2018 - 7:11 pm)

Ur attitude is why you'll remain in doc review while ur inquisitive co-workers will end up with six figure associate jobs. Not giving a damn is what landed you in doc review, and continuing to not give a damn is what will keep you there......

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caj111 (Jul 20, 2018 - 7:37 pm)

Somehow I don't think either of them will end up in six figure associate jobs. I can't blame the guy for not giving a s---, really. Maybe he has a better chance of getting out of doc review and doing something else. Not a six-figure associate job, but something different. The one thing about document review, if you don't want to be doing it the rest of your life, is to have an exit plan.

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zodd (Jul 21, 2018 - 12:33 pm)

What a foolish response. You obviously don't know the first thing about doc review. Asking question after question, going very fast. Acting all serious- Most people in doc review laugh at those clowns. Nobody is getting associate jobs from doc review no matter how hard you work. The harder you work the faster your job ends. That's it....Nothing else.

Not giving a damn is how you survive in doc review. Its what makes the tedium bearable. You get zero for being interested in the case. I had a smart older lady once sitting behind me on a project. She kept asking substantive questions. Finally the associate told her "We are not paying you to think"

So there you have it.

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underemployedlawyer (Jul 22, 2018 - 11:19 am)

I guess they fear making a mistake and have bills to pay. Plus if you can’t get out of doc review it is in your best interests to stay on long term projects because having lots of conflicts will mean it will be harder to get work

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underemployedlawyer (Jul 22, 2018 - 7:59 pm)

How do you code a doc for issues with not thinking?

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patenttrollnj (Jul 24, 2018 - 1:20 pm)

Oh, just stop with the sanctimony!

Doc review is a "dead end" job with no future at all. Everybody knows it.

Frankly, I feel bad for all those hard working and motivated people that do have a "good" attitude. It's a total waste of energy, which they should instead be channeling into switching careers.

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tedandlisa123 (Jul 20, 2018 - 7:44 pm)

The guy reviewing obnoxiously fast is just going to get his work reviewed more carefully. The goal in document review is to stay in the middle of the pack pace wise, not make any glaring mistakes, and keep your head down. The fact that that you are micro-analyzing all the actions of your coworkers isn’t a very good sign that you are keeping your head down. The goal of any doc reviewer is to not make any waves and be as invisible as possible.

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hairypalms (Jul 20, 2018 - 9:11 pm)

I call them "supertemps." I did DR for about 6 years after I lost my first firm job. There's always someone on the project that thinks their hard work is going to translate into an associate position. I saw this so many times it was hilarious and I would go out of my way to make sure I called them "supertemp" and to try to set them straight. Call me jaded. I call it reality. Have some self respect. Just click the mouse, eat the pizza and cash the check. That's about the best you can hope for in DR. Fortunately, I have left DR and my career is back on track as an in-house attorney, but I still think about how miserable I was during those 6 years, all while trying to make my student loan payments. There are still a couple d-bag associates at these biglaw firms that I would have loved to punch out for being so disrespectful toward the DR plebes.

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caj111 (Jul 20, 2018 - 10:55 pm)

Nothing jaded about it, it sure is reality. 6 years doing doc review, and you got back into regular law practice? How did that work? Would love to hear at least some details on that one.

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hairypalms (Jul 21, 2018 - 1:41 pm)

Sure. One of my DR assignments ended, I was out of work for a number of months and was desperately trying to figure out my next path as DR work was drying up. I got a temp job as a "contract analyst" for a pharma company, and then parlayed that into successive positions until I was promoted to counsel. It took about 3 years, but I am in a good place now, my career is back on track and I have marketability again. I've been with the same company now for 5 years. It helps to have a great boss too. For those doing DR, I would recommend getting into a role where you draft/negotiate contracts. Every company has a need for contracting or contract management. I started off doing patent law, but the field became overly saturated and I don't have a Ph.D. so I am really more of a transactional attorney at this time. I think it's a great path as I don't have to get bogged down with the hyper technical scientific details and I am not subject to statutory patent filing deadlines. If I make a mistake, I just prepare a contract amendment to correct it.

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nonlinearjdmba (Jul 21, 2018 - 4:26 pm)

I did DR for ~4 years deferring debt that maxed out at $280k before I was able to really start paying it down. Ugh, so stressful. I asked questions but mostly to keep myself engaged; otherwise I would have gone nuts. 2 years of code monkey, 2 years of overseeing code monkeys. First role out was a contract management role at a company, mostly admin, some draftng, zero negotiating. Parlayed that to an associate level role at a bank in their third party risk management group. Started out with a lot of drafting and some negotiating, minimal admin. 2 years in I’m getting teed up for the first real promotion in my working life, make great money (will net ~$150k this year, more if promoted) amazing benefits and extras, and I spend almost 100% if my time in deal meetings, negotiating contracts, and working with our in-house lawyers on the thornier issues. We hire outside counsel for a lot of the drafting, so I have big law lawyers working for me now, lol. They’re still a bunch of stiffs but they’re a lot nicer now that I’m the paying client :)

The banking world is heavily regulated and full of former lawyers working in non atty roles. I don’t recommend the biggest banks as you’re just a replaceable cog in the system, but a mid-sized Bank (under $200B) can be a great place to start and grow a career.

Writing this makes me feel very happy that I pushed myself to quit the DR world. I currently have only $6k remaining on those Student loans and will have it completed paid off by January 2019. Actually have money in the bank, maxing out my 401k, and might just be able to buy a house one day.

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themapmaster (Jul 21, 2018 - 5:33 pm)

I am truly happy to read about those that suffered through years of doc review hell and now have successful careers. The key more often than not seems to be getting out. That DR gunners don’t see that is sad and annoying at once. Sad because you know they have virtually no chance of getting called up from the basement and annoying because they’re still gunning and embarrassing every DR schmuck while they do.

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hairypalms (Jul 22, 2018 - 8:48 am)

I agree. There is just no upward mobility at all in DR. Perhaps if you get a job with a vendor that is a different story, but at a law firm you are relegated to the basement and sharing a bathroom with 50 people. Have the courage to start fresh, even if it is not at the attorney level. If you are at a good company, you will be promoted (though not necessarily to an attorney position) and hopefully valued.

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dandydan (Jul 23, 2018 - 11:15 am)

I find it to be pathetic but for some people, it is to feel some self worth by demonstrating strong interest in the subject. From my short time in DR, people would tell you how horrible the world is and how DR is the savior. In general, it was not a place that people seeking jobs would go just to get over the hump for a few months; it was a place where people who gave up hope went to kill their careers.

DR is not a place for people with killer instincts. My favorite are the lifers who think that they're important until the staff attorney yells at them for turning on their phones.

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tedandlisa123 (Jul 23, 2018 - 6:26 pm)

Sometimes, self-delusion can be a good thing. If you think life is bad in the doc review dungeon, it can be even more dismal outside the dungeon. A lot of these projects are in expensive locales. Coders are not only dealing with shattered careers, but also broken relationships, substandard housing, and inadequate health care. I am firmly of the belief that any type of work, even the most menial, can provide someone with an iota of dignity and self-respect. Entertain them in their delusion of importance. Sometimes it’s the only thread allowing someone to hang on.

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esquirewalletsmatter (Jul 23, 2018 - 7:12 pm)

Iron in those words.

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jbthealmightyprophet (Jul 23, 2018 - 11:10 pm)

Ahhh, yes, as I so long ago quoted Cheif Ten Bears on this very site, and coined that phrase as applicable to today's lawland....there is some iron in those words...The influence of the GPK lives on here.. God bless!

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dandydan (Jul 24, 2018 - 8:56 am)

Re tedandlisa123's post, I see your point but respectfully disagree. If these people need help then being in doc review is going to make it worse, not better. By entertaining them in their delusion, you will be enabling them to continue in their state instead of them feeling compelled to make something happen with their lives. If they would be willing, professional help is out there. From what I've seen, they don't want to really do something about their problem. Encouraging them to get out there and click the "hot" document furthers the problem.

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tedandlisa123 (Jul 24, 2018 - 5:27 pm)

Yes, but at least these people have somewhere to go in the morning. Never discount the psychological effects that sitting on at home with nowhere to go can have on the male psyche. Sometimes when I have time to think deeply and I put on my conspiracy hat, I begin to think that these make work DR jobs are born out of deal made between the powers that be and those that run the cartel. “We will give you a green light to continue to fleece the public, so long as you throw a few crumbs to the plebians to reduce the risk of someone shooting up some post office somewhere,”

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underemployedlawyer (Jul 23, 2018 - 4:37 pm)

The only thing worse than doc review is managing doc review

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bcls (Jul 24, 2018 - 8:37 pm)

The only thing worse than being rejected for a job in doc review is being accepted for a job in doc review.

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onehell (Jul 23, 2018 - 6:00 pm)

As far back as the L4L days, I can remember people talking about these doc review "gunners" whose essential problem is failure to recognize that they are operating in a caste system from which ascent is not possible.

Can't exactly blame them. This is the USA. We have all been raised on Horatio Alger mythology. That includes the idea that one distinguishes oneself and moves up by working that much harder than the next guy. Truth is, luck plays so much more of a role than we like to admit. Luck of birth, luck of some supervisor just randomly taking a liking to you because you remind them of their kid, whatever. Working hard /=/ working smart, so yes you should work hard, but only where doing so has some demonstrable likelihood of actually leading somewhere. Otherwise, you're just a hamster in a wheel.

But unfortunately, there's nothing anyone can say or do to convince people that all this positivist "if you can dream it you can do it" type pop psychology is false. People gotta learn life's lessons the hard way sometimes. One of those realities is the concept of the dead-end job: The only way up is out, no matter how hard you work. Eventually, most will make that realization IMHO.

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jbthealmightyprophet (Jul 23, 2018 - 11:12 pm)

One Hell has always been one of the greatest posters.

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dandydan (Jul 24, 2018 - 9:01 am)

People understand that working hard does not necessarily get you anywhere. You can be the best cashier out there but never get anywhere. These are called dead-end jobs for a reason. Doc review is one of those jobs, no matter how seriously you take yourself. From my contacts within the doc review world, it seems that most do not realize that they should put their effort into something else. A doc review resume will not impress anyone except for doc review recruiters.

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bcls (Jul 24, 2018 - 8:39 pm)

The only way up is to first go down. Down to the deepest pit of hell, only then can one begin the ascent to the promised land.

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patenttrollnj (Jul 24, 2018 - 1:26 pm)

Why people in doc review take it seriously?? Hope

They probably legitimately believe what they're doing means something, and people value their work.

Something about humans where we need to feel that what we do is important. And after so many years in school (and all that money wasted), we need to think that our "special skills" are valued.

It's sad really. I feel bad for these people.

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anothernjlawyer (Jul 24, 2018 - 2:34 pm)

Everyone wants to think that what they do is important, because it ties into our sense of self-worth.

The guy flipping burgers at Wendy's thinks "Man, if I'm not here, this whole shift will fall apart!"

The night custodian thinks, "If I don't take care of this place, nobody is going to be able to do their job tomorrow."

The guy below the middle manager thinks, "This entire project depends on me!"

The middle manager thinks "This entire project depends on me!"

Etc., Etc......People maintain their self-image, even in dead-end jobs, through the fiction that they are somehow indispensable in those positions. The truth, of course, is that nobody is indispensable.


I agree that doc review (and most smallaw jobs) are a dead end, but if you spend your day to day and entire career thinking, "nothing I do matters, my life's work is essentially worthless, and a trained monkey could do my job," you're probably at real risk of suicide.

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onehell (Jul 25, 2018 - 3:51 pm)

Well, the guy flipping burgers at Wendy's actually has a much clearer path upwards than a doc reviewer. Shift managers at fast food restaurants are usually chosen from the ranks of the burger flippers. If you always show up on time, are courteous to customers and supervisors, well-groomed, etc. and you stay on staff long enough, chances are actually quite good that you'll get promoted to manager.

Shift managers tend to make around 25-35k, salaried not hourly. The best shift managers can become store managers who make in the 50s and 60s, and the best store managers can become regional managers who make like 80k and get a company car to go between the multiple restaurants they oversee.

Granted, only a small few will ascend the ranks like this, but at least a defined path upwards exists. That's more than I can say for doc review.

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attorneydavid (Jul 29, 2018 - 3:54 pm)

The store manager of a cheesecake factor makes 100+. For alot of those places showing up on time and being reasonably responsible should make you supervisor in under 6 months. Some are known for being longer like starbucks but if you do some research service jobs CAN but don't always have good upward mobility. I think brinker assistants are around 40 or so.

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patenttrollnj (Jul 26, 2018 - 1:40 am)

Assuming said burger flipper isn't an unemployed law school graduate, one doesn't need to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars and multiple years to get to that position.

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jacob (Jul 24, 2018 - 3:31 pm)

I don’t think realizing a trained monkey being able to do my job is enough to draw me to suicide. There is meaning in the form of the paycheck, and time to play on my phone or listen to podcasts while I do so. I also look forward to my hobbies outside of work.

@tedandlisa - LOL no one is micro analyzing the fellow employees. If anything I am doing what you suggested - head down, be invisible, etc - and wondering WHY these people are so invested in this nonsense.


Seems like my feelings are on par otherwise with the other posters. I just see so many people every project so invested in the case I was curious as to what motivates these people to give more than minimal effort. Delusional folks.

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dietcoke (Jul 24, 2018 - 5:45 pm)

so in your world the only people who should care about their jobs are AmLaw100 partners?

I reiterate what someone else wrote: you're where you're at because of this attitude, and that's why you'll stay there.

Doc review may not get the glory, but it is actually important. Props to those who take it seriously and put in the effort. Maybe they won't DR their way to associate at that firm but a good work ethic makes an impression on people, nonetheless. It could open other doors.

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jacob (Jul 24, 2018 - 6:03 pm)

No, I’m not here because of an attitude, I am here because of a chronic illness that threw me off my legal career track. I’m not going to stay here as I’m not afraid to venture out of law. I am hardworking, but also intelligent enough to recognize a situation that doesn’t call for hardwork to complete the task. Lol @ props to those who take it seriously, yea serious business here clicking relevant/not relevant on a sea of meaningless documents.

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loser12 (Jul 24, 2018 - 6:17 pm)

You're both speaking about different things. S/he's saying that what doc reviewers do is important. You're saying that doc reviewers aren't important. Most associates aren't important either. The difference is they get paid more.

Some people are implying that the general seriousness of these other doc reviewers may help them land something outside of doc review. Personally, I think they're expending too much energy when they can be applying for jobs instead, but I don't have doc review experience.

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cranky (Jul 24, 2018 - 7:24 pm)

Just a thought-- don't some of the doc reviewers have a chance to become the leader of doc review projects? I know of someone mired in doc review who later got promoted to managing such projects. I don't know if that person's still doing it, but it seemed to pay much better than plain doc review.

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dupednontraditional (Jul 26, 2018 - 6:46 am)

They probably do, but like most jobs the question is how many upward slots are there. Whether it’s doc review or burger flipping, are there 1 in 10 opportunities to advance? 1 in 100? Sometimes a job is dead-end because the organization is flat, and they like it that way.

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bittersweet (Jul 25, 2018 - 11:54 am)

Okay, the doc review market is busy at the moment (at least in DC), so this may not be as relevant as other times, but there is good reason for taking the work seriously.

When the market is slow, firms call the agency. They have a list of people who have worked for them before. They want the people who are faster than average, have a low error rate, and work well with people. Those who blow off the projects are usually not on that list.

When work is scarce, being on that list is an economic godsend. It's the difference between working 6 months of the year instead of ten. For those of us who have not yet been able to escape DR, this is very important. Running a project is more lucrative. Doing QC and the priv log may pay better with certain agencies, and they want people who understand the case for that. Even if they don't pay better, it's another week or two of work when the lesser peons get "released."

When the market is busy - not a big deal. You can find another gig without a problem. But if it's not, that's two weeks of over $1000+ (in major DR markets anyway) vs two weeks of whatever your state's unemployment rate is. That's a good chunk of rent or a student loan payment.

Get enough gigs at QC and running projects and you might get staff attorney position. Is it ideal? H3ll no, but it has things like vacation time and health insurance that you can't get if you bounce between six agencies over the course of a year.

DR in general sucks - no argument. But I do know people who have gotten real associate jobs from it. And some HAVE made it to partner. It's very, VERY rare, but (in theory) it can still happen.

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jacob (Jul 25, 2018 - 5:42 pm)

I am frequently invited to participate on those teams despite my minimal effort approach to doc review. I can’t tell if I’m missing out on anything by playing the cat-and-mouse game of barely paying attention to my coding and coasting through until I’m given a specific instruction to change something I’m doing.

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thedarkscrivener (Jul 26, 2018 - 9:16 am)

The trick to surviving DR is to simultaneously care and not care. Do I care about doing a competent job? Yes. I'm being paid to code documents based on a set of specific parameters. Do I care whether Giant Mega Tech Company Inc. prevails in their lawsuit against Other Giant Mega Tech Company Ltd.? No. I'm not being paid to argue the merits of OGMTC Ltd.'s 17 affirmative defenses.

TL;DR I don't have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun you.

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pisces213 (Jul 26, 2018 - 1:30 pm)

Sometimes you have to care just to keep yourself from picking up bad habits. It’s difficult to find the “switch” to turn on when things matter if you have been cruising for too long. This doesn’t mean that you have to be a gunner during DR but you may want to practice projecting an image you would want prospective employers to see so you look the part when such an opportunity comes.

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loser12 (Jul 26, 2018 - 4:23 pm)

This is true in non-doc review work too.

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loblawyer (Jul 28, 2018 - 4:24 pm)

How common is a successful exit from long term doc review? Noticed the posts from hairypalms and nonlinearjdmba (both on 7/21) who had highly successful outcomes after several years in doc review by going the contracts management route. I've seen similar posts on here before, generally contracts management temp jobs as the path to high paying work, and always wondered if these were unicorn outcomes.

Sometimes makes me think I should have done DR to get into contracts management (not sure how I could jump into that now from my unrelated career in private practice). Always thought I was lucky in avoiding doc review, but the above two outcomes (which are light years beyond where I am in private practice) make me question that.

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nonlinearjdmba (Jul 28, 2018 - 5:11 pm)

I don’t know too many folks who navigated away from DR, but I intentionally distanced myself and haven’t looked back. There were a few who went ahead of me, and they were doing well but similarly decided DR was a dead end street and made their exits to either associated roles at small to midsize firms, went the contract admin route at big companies, or got into PM roles at vendors. I’m probably in unicorn territory.

DR was not a gateway to anything for me. I removed it from my resume entirely when applying to contract positions. My first employer out of DR was a lot more intrigued by my finance chops and general business acumen.

The money and autonomy is in negotiating deals, not “contract management.” I still have some contract mgmt stuff that comes with the territory, but I’m largely doing price and business term negotiations. Also, edit to my first post: that’s $150k gross, not net. I do alright but I don’t make big boy money yet.

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joecoder (Jul 29, 2018 - 12:01 am)

I make entry level (like 60k-ish) in big 4 after going back to school post long term doc review.

Left it all on my resume and got hired anyway, though.

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shithead (Jul 29, 2018 - 10:16 am)

I don't see any exit plan for myself. I like my foreign-language doc-review lifestyle. I know this gravy train won't last forever, and maintain a substantive side-hustle of a practice, but I'll ride it as long as I can.

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