Remembering TCPaul, 2016-2019

Open letter to potential law students icle/an_open_letter_to_po hankhill08/17/18
It's a little late for new 1-L's. jeffm08/17/18
Kid: “Dad, I’m revisiting this whole law school thing. wearyattorney08/17/18
Déjà vu wutwutwut08/17/18
I figured I would drive the point home again. No amount of i wearyattorney08/17/18
there were plenty of movies and tv shows that showed e.g. am dingbat08/17/18
In fairness to the boomers, they've pretty much aged out of toooldtocare08/17/18
They’ve got nothing better to do? Yeah, because they have wearyattorney08/17/18
No, it's not. The scam is the scam, but by the time these k toooldtocare08/17/18
Yes it is. Every good job has fierce competition. There wearyattorney08/17/18
While we agree that law school for most is a scam, and that toooldtocare08/17/18
1. There isn’t a great demand for any good job. There’ wearyattorney08/17/18
You make a lot of points, and those points are 1. pretty amo toooldtocare08/17/18
“a lot of bad decision making enabled by the federal govt. wearyattorney08/17/18
For the sake of clarity, I too believe that attending law sc toooldtocare08/17/18
Individual accountability is a separate issue. What would d wearyattorney08/17/18
Sorry, no; individual accountability isn't a separate issue. toooldtocare08/18/18
What classifies as an irresponsible act is changing much mor wearyattorney08/18/18
It's clear we're never going to agree, as you are a tireless toooldtocare08/18/18
The individuals are and will continue to be held accountable wearyattorney08/18/18
What posts are you reading? Where did I ask you what you wa toooldtocare08/18/18
You expressly asked me “do you want to be a cop?” Hence wearyattorney08/18/18
And I hope anyone reading this also does some research and l toooldtocare08/18/18
I never suggested you didn’t need a teaching certificate, wearyattorney08/18/18
ALL of the jobs require additional schoolwork(think tuition toooldtocare08/19/18
So are you suggesting if a kid didn’t think things through wearyattorney08/19/18
Serious question: I agree with most of this discussion where adamb08/20/18
Read the article Campos posted on the unsustainable tuition wearyattorney08/20/18
An aggrieved neocon-it all makes sense now! The blaming cul toooldtocare08/20/18
Neocon!!! Those are fighting words. :) Ginsburg and her wearyattorney08/20/18
Because some people claim that limiting law school enrollmen section8rick08/20/18
"...and 2/3 of the comments are about identity politics and wutwutwut08/18/18
Can confirm...teaching school is the greatest regr jdcumlaude08/21/18
180 midlaw08/17/18
Some bad advice still here. Travel the world first? On whose onehell08/17/18
I found that puzzling, too-it seemed their points at the end toooldtocare08/17/18
The cat is out of the bag for a long time. If an adult choos wallypancake08/17/18
It’s not “their money.” It’s the tax payers money. wearyattorney08/17/18
Ok. Based on that no one should get a mortgage either becaus wallypancake08/17/18
If the real default rates are significant enough and tied to wearyattorney08/17/18
HARP dingbat08/17/18
I don’t think those are in remotely the same league, altho wearyattorney08/17/18
Because we don’t want our people Becoming depression and s mtbislife08/17/18
" ... Because it’s such a stressful profession, burnout is patenttrollnj08/18/18
Engineering and medicine are stressful, sure. But when a doc onehell08/20/18
Personally, that doesn't bug me. The profession is what it patenttrollnj08/21/18
Of course. I was more responding to your "burn out" comment, onehell08/21/18
Certainly, there is "burn out" in all professions. Howeve patenttrollnj08/23/18
teachers: an "epidemic" apparently https://www.psychologyto toooldtocare08/23/18
You can do anything that you want, as long as you pay cash u acerimmer08/18/18
Cops have lots of stressful issues. Fireman is where it's a fuckup08/18/18

hankhill (Aug 17, 2018 - 9:30 am)

Kind of surprising that the ABA would publish this in their journal.

jeffm (Aug 17, 2018 - 9:39 am)

It's a little late for new 1-L's.

wearyattorney (Aug 17, 2018 - 11:53 am)

Kid: “Dad, I’m revisiting this whole law school thing. It’s not a good job anymore, even the ABA is warning people not to go. And it’s going to get worse as markets saturate and technology plays a greater role.”

Retired Boomer government worker parent: “That’s a lie. The lawyers are writing that in the publication because they don’t want competition.”

Kid: “I’m reading other sources too. They also suggest that, given the changes in technology and globalization, pursuing many careers doesn’t make sense anymore, law being the worst option. Maybe being a cop or a teacher makes sense? Retirement benefits, pension, can’t be fired or outsourced, etc? You did ok working for the government.”

Retired Boomer: “ Are you fing kidding me? I have a 90k a year pension and only 500k in liquid assets!!!!!!? Do you know how much a hedge fund manager makes? And I busted my ass for twenty years to get this pension? I had to work for 20 years God Damn it! Look at your sister’s husband’s brother’s third cousin, he’s doing great in law.”

Kid: “Dad, most people don’t get a pension today outside of government and there’s tremendous instability. Are you talking about Frank? Frank told me not to go. Frank’s parents gave him serious seed money, his parents are rich and he inherited some rentals. The guys working for Frank are really struggling.”

Boomer: “God Damn it!!! Hedge fund managers are billionaires and you are sitting here talking about pensions. Hedge fund lawyers are also rich. When I was your age, you had to work to go to school, you couldn’t just take loans. I had to work two summers to pay for my tuition and I was exhausted by the ordeal, I couldn’t finish college. If I went to law school, we’d be living a real life I tell you. Frank’s also lying, he doesn’t want competition.”

Kid: “But tuition now...”

Boomer: “You really are speaking like a loser. Cop or teacher over lawyer?! How many TV shows show teachers and cops driving Bentleys and living the high life. Have you seen Suits? That’s what you want to miss to become a teacher?! You are going to listen to some strangers over your father who wants the best for you? You sound like a crazy person. I have forty years more experience than you.”

Kid: “I guess...”

Five years later

Boomer: “I never told you to go to law school. We make our own decisions in this life. Why are you making 40k? That’s less than a police cadet?!”

Kid: “The market...”

Boomer: “lies”

And the scam rolls on...

wutwutwut (Aug 17, 2018 - 12:02 pm)

Déjà vu

wearyattorney (Aug 17, 2018 - 12:28 pm)

I figured I would drive the point home again. No amount of information is going to change this absent a significant cultural item, ie movie, showing reality or the feds pulling the federal guarantee.

This isn’t going to end until we have legions of lemmings buried.

dingbat (Aug 17, 2018 - 7:13 pm)

there were plenty of movies and tv shows that showed e.g. ambulance chasers.

Any time some kid asks me about being a lawyer, I make them watch the first 15 minutes of The Verdict (1980). That does a pretty good job of dissuading people

toooldtocare (Aug 17, 2018 - 12:31 pm)

In fairness to the boomers, they've pretty much aged out of this scenario.
And weary clearly knows a whole different set of 20 somethings than I do; most of them would have told Boomer to drop dead(ok, not that language but this board has rules) after the first Boomer response, or would have told Boomer to foot the bill, which would have quickly ended the conversation.
While there are still plenty of Special Snowflakes attending, and too many gullible first generation students who get taken advantage of, I'm convinced that most 1Ls at lousy law schools attend for one reason: they've got nothing better to do. They may be aware of all the information out there about what a massive risk it is, or they may not have bothered to look, but going to law school for three years beats working retail. They've got no assets, they've got debt from undergrad they're never going to repay, so what's more debt? It's a pretty cynical view, but it also may realistic. The economy just doesn't need all these BAs. And getting into law school is incredibly easy.
And it's not just law school taking advantage of the situation; if you've got time, explore the many worthless Master's degrees being offered by a school near you-and at top prices, too.

wearyattorney (Aug 17, 2018 - 12:38 pm)

They’ve got nothing better to do? Yeah, because they have been brainwashed. Taking a crap shot at a masters in education or taking a myriad of civil service jobs is going to lead to an infinitely better outcome than law school. They just don’t believe it. The culture, the boomer dominated culture, has them like hamsters: cop- poor, teacher-poor, lawyer- rich.

That’s the net of it.

toooldtocare (Aug 17, 2018 - 12:55 pm)

No, it's not.
The scam is the scam, but by the time these kids get their pretty much worthless BAs, they've got very limited options. The problem starts long before law school-the scam is higher education itself. The graduates are limited in their options from the get-go. They can't get jobs, but it's not as if they can just go into healthcare, as many advise, because they didn't take the required courses. This is a group who took no science, math, or anything vaguely challenging. So what options do they have?
Teaching: Yeah, lots of articles about teachers-but the fine print is a killer. They're desperate for math, science, foreign language teachers; if you've got a BA in communications, you aren't eligible. Maybe they need TOEFL-that requires special training, too. Very very few teacher jobs are available for your run-of-the-mill BA.
Government: No question they'd be qualified for most jobs, but everybody knows this, so the competition for these jobs is fierce. And it's almost like law school-you better have connections...
Cops: It's not a matter of salary-it's a matter of-do you want to be a cop? It's a job where every time you have contact with a citizen-or just about-you're giving him bad news, ranging from a traffic ticket to having to physically restrain a drug-addled suspect. Do you want to do this? If so, great, but it clearly doesn't work out too well for a significant number of cops.
Higher education is a mess, and exploits the "all education is good" mantra-but it will take major changes, starting in undergrad, to fix the mess. There are no easy solutions, and the law school scam is just the tip of the scam iceberg.

wearyattorney (Aug 17, 2018 - 2:30 pm)

Yes it is.

Every good job has fierce competition. There is a need for history and English teachers, it’s just the competition. Also, it’s not difficult to find a university where you can get a stem undergrad with really bad grades and give math and science teaching a go. Both paths have less adverse consequences than law. It’s drilled in heads that lawyer is good, teacher is bad.

Try and get the government jobs first, if you fail, then go to law school. The competition for decent legal jobs is going to be worse, and as the legal market gets worse, keeping those jobs is going to be worse.

Regarding cop, you don’t get to pick the jobs for social mobility anymore. No one promised an easy life and doing things on your terms. We have had 40 years of outsourcing, illegal and legal immigration, and a tax shifting from capital to labor. Any attempt to address the first two issues is met with the iron club of identity politics, and the last issue is never going to be truly resolved as politicians are paid by people that collect rent, not people that are paid for exchanging their time. So issues aren’t going to improve. If cops in the right part of the country are one of the select groups exempt from the crushing of labor, then that’s one of the jobs lower class kids are going to have to shoot for.

Look at this

We are at the point where the cost of a Columbia law degree is so prohibitive that even if you go and get big law, you are still screwed. Read the comments. We have prohibitive and robust economic scam perpetrated by government enabled actors, and 2/3 of the comments are about identity politics and how bad white males are. There is no salvation. You aren’t going to do a job that’s nice and fulfilling and make money, you are going to do the job no one else wants to do and that has political backing if you want to survive and have some upward mobility in this economy.

The party of labor is now the party of identity politics. It’s so bad that labor is better off with a President born on third base that is giving tax breaks to billionaires because he’s the only voice discussing the core problem of outsourcing and immigration, and you have consolidated effort by every institution of power to bring him down.

You do the best you can with the circumstances.

Hopefully, the absurdity of the student loan structure is dealt with at some point, but I doubt it.

toooldtocare (Aug 17, 2018 - 4:00 pm)

While we agree that law school for most is a scam, and that the feds ought to get out of the loan business(I also think education loans, like everything else loan wise, ought to be dischargeable in bankruptcy), I don't agree with your other assessments:

1. Where is there a demand for teachers so great that they'll take any bachelor's? What's the starting salary there? Specifically, where is there a need for history and English teachers?
Just saying there is doesn't make it so. Most of the applicants at the lousy schools can't get jobs with their BAs, and would need extensive coursework in math/science/foreign language to make a MEd worth the money.

2. Yes, government jobs can be the way to a good life-but just try to get one. Suggesting that college grads apply is no advice at all; they're already applying and not getting these jobs because a limited number of jobs are available.

3. Your response about being a cop makes no sense-but let's keep it simple-would you want to be a cop? What in the world does outsourcing have to do with working in law enforcement?

4. And what does the cost of Columbia have to do with anything? These are legal adults deciding to spend this money-or more specifically, take on this debt, with the ultimate gamble of getting one of those near-mythical 180K/year jobs.

You clearly have an huge ax to grind with the current political system. No argument there, but it has little or nothing to do with bad decision-making and telling people to be cops or teachers.

wearyattorney (Aug 17, 2018 - 4:25 pm)

1. There isn’t a great demand for any good job. There’s a surplus of labor (that was the point of my political screed). You try and get the best job you can where the attempt will hurt you the least if you fail. If you fail at with a masters in education, you don’t have nearly the same problems as if you fail with a JD (debt, lost time, overqualified for everything, etc.). Even the extensive work you describe to get a STEM and teach is a better option.

2. See point 1. Applies here too. You minimize the risk. If you fail at getting the government job, you are out a civil service test fee, not several hundred k and years from your life.

3. Outsourcing and immigration are the primary reason the middle is suffering so significantly economically. Where the data is available, look and see at how many US employees major American corporations employed in the US fifty years ago vs today. The outsourcing and immigration policies are forcing people into a narrower subset of positions (law being one of them), which in and of itself is devestating. That’s why you keep giving the example law, retail, or crickets as option for young people. The stuff was sent offshore and what wasn’t sent offshore is being dealt with H1B1s and illegal immigration. The problem is compounded if you are in the portion of those narrow subset of jobs that are subject to market forces, eg law. A cop’s salary or a teacher’s salary in the right places in the country isn’t subject to market forces. The union tells the politicians our members need X to liver here, do you want their votes? It doesn’t matter how many applicants there are or how bad the economy is. They get paid. They aren’t subject to the forces associated with outsourcing or insourcing. That’s why it’s relevant.

As to what I would want to do, it doesn’t matter. You play the hand you are dealt. In this economy, if you aren’t at the apex of the socioeconomic structure and don’t have an entrepreneurial spirit, your only salvation is protected employment. Cop is one such form of protected employment. If you don’t want protected employment, then give the roulette wheel a spin.

4. The Columbia example is meant to show that two things, The first is that things are getting worse. Ten years ago, if you went to Columbia and were lower class, you still had a reasonable chance at success. As the price increases (if you read the article), people who are going on loans, even if they get biglaw, are still toast. Any preconception about positive aspects of the legal field is going to change and for the worse as prices go up and the market gets worse. This means that even kids that think they are making a responsible decision, eg attend Columbia, based on advice and notion that even up until a few years ago was gospel here, are in fact making a bad and irresponsible decision. The trend is a straight line down, even for stuff that is allegedly good.

The second point is that these problems are not going to be solved because the left is just absolutely hell bent and committed to identity politics, as evinced by the article. That article describes a government funded and enabled scam of epic proportions, and the comment section is dedicated to articulating the grievances of minorities and white privilege. How are you going to solve any problem when identity politics is being used that way? You want to stop immigration, giving labor some breathing room? Racist. You want to stop outsourcing? Racist. You want to stop loans flowing to any and every school? Racist, you are denying access.

My point is the government is enabling this scam, and it isn’t going to changed. My second point is that people are brainwashed on what constitutes a positive career, based on economic conditions that no longer in play, and in light of economic conditions that are deteriorating. They need to make an informed decision with that in mind.

toooldtocare (Aug 17, 2018 - 4:54 pm)

You make a lot of points, and those points are 1. pretty amorphous and 2. totally without any substantiation other than your opinion.

You also like to use the word "brainwashed" a lot. Per the CDC, almost 38 million Americans still smoke-the information is out there that this will kill you, but they still smoke-so are they all brainwashed?

People make terrible decisions all the time, so let's get away from using brainwashing as an excuse. Should the govt get out of the student loan business? Yes. But that doesn't mean that applicants to law school are brainwashed. At some point people need to get off the couch and do 10 minutes' research.

And I have no idea where you live, but in most of the US, the power of labor unions, public or otherwise, has been receding rapidly over the past 3-4 decades.

We could go back and forth forever, as it's clear we view things very, very differently. Shouting "racism" and "identity politics" and "brainwashing" ignores a lot of what is going on-specifically a lot of bad decision making enabled by the federal govt.

wearyattorney (Aug 17, 2018 - 5:14 pm)

“a lot of bad decision making enabled by the federal govt.” That’s the main thrust of it. On that we agree.

But what informs the bad decision making? I believe not understanding the trend and cultural beliefs. Five years ago, even the most hardcore scam blogger would tell a kid that Columbia at sticker was still an ok idea, and yet, we are approaching the point where that isn’t true. The cultural’s view on the matter takes decades to catch up to the real view. The culture isn’t at the point where law school is viewed as a scam, forget about an ivy law school (that’s why Nando started to profile the T14 in the end). This is one point. Culturally, the kids believe law school is their best desperate attempt. I call that brainwashing for better or worse.

There are several other desperate attempts that offer a better situation if realized, and a less painful outcome in view of failure. This is one area where I think we disagree. I think we also disagree on whether due dilligencd can solve the problem, but lets say the kid does ten minutes of research and read this thread (without a contribution counter to your point). I have a useless BA, no other options, and so even though it’s ruinous, I’ll give law school a twirl. That is your point, I think? If you have a useless BA it’s retail, some other crap job, or law school? My point is that that isn’t true. There are several other options to exhaust. Law school should be the absolute final thing to do.

Identity politics is what is enabling this. That isn’t me shouting, that’s a fact. Read the comments for that article, many of which are made by fairly elite liberal lawyers. Review the counter arguments made by the scam professors on why we can’t curb loans, ie minoroties won’t have access. Review the arguments on why the bar exam had to be changed (only when applicants plummeted of course) ie it’s racist not to let everyone in. Individual complicity in the matter is relevant, but in light of the downward trend, this absurd government policy can’t die because to assail it is to bring forth accusations of racism.

I might not live in an area where unions are very strong, but I can read, and public sector unions in California, New York, Illinois, parts of Texas (for law enforcement), Massachusetts, New Jersey, and Florida (for law enforcement) are doing just fine. That’s more than half the population of the country.

toooldtocare (Aug 17, 2018 - 5:51 pm)

For the sake of clarity, I too believe that attending law school is a bad idea for the vast majority of applicants. It's a waste of time and money, as it won't lead to a job, which is the whole point of professional school.
But I'm past the point of letting applicants off the hook; many-if not most-of the attendees at the lousy law schools(which is most of them) attend because they think they've got nothing better to do. It's a bad decision, but they aren't brainwashed, or forced to attend by their boomer parents, or coerced by society in general; they are independent actors making a very bad decision.
And the information about how bad a decision it is is readily available-the lawyers, guns and money blog, for example, or LST, or OTLSS, etc etc. But do the applicants bother to check? If not, it's long past time to blame the Boomers or brainwashing or anything else. If they haven't bothered to check whether a decision that is going to cost 250K, more or less, is a good idea, then nothing will change their minds.

wearyattorney (Aug 17, 2018 - 7:12 pm)

Individual accountability is a separate issue. What would due dilligence do? You are saying they don’t have any options but law school. Other
scam blog proponents say the same thing. Of course it isn’t true, but that doesn’t matter. Also what is irresponsible is changing annually at this point. Would you have said to someone attending Columbia is a bad idea 10 years ago, even with full loans? It’s getting to be that way now though. The cultural belief is going to lag reality. If you want real change from an individual actor level, cultural beliefs have to change.

Otherwise, you need responsible government policy, but that isn’t going to happen because of identity politics.

toooldtocare (Aug 18, 2018 - 9:40 am)

Sorry, no; individual accountability isn't a separate issue. People need to actually take the time and put some effort into adult decision making.
And who is saying that these individuals "don't have any other options but law school"?
They go to law school because it's the path of least resistance, and gets them out of retail for three years and may sound respectable to some people. But everyone agrees it's a bad decision.
But just because there are terrible government policies, that doesn't get people off the hook regarding personal decisions.
And telling people to go be a cop, teacher, or get a government job isn't realistic. For most of these people, that's not a possibility-but that doesn't mean they should go to law school.

wearyattorney (Aug 18, 2018 - 3:05 pm)

What classifies as an irresponsible act is changing much more rapidly than cultural beliefs. There are still posters on this board that will tell people that Columbia at sticker is worth the cost. The information shows you need to probably make it to your fifth year as a big law associate to pay that off (and live frugally in the process) in a reasonable way. 80 percent don’t make it to the 5th year. So we are approaching a point where going to Columbia law if you aren’t rich is a bad move, yet almost no one, including some of the scam bloggers and people on this board, will tell a kid it’s a catastrophic move.

If you really want to solve the problem, we need a real social awakening. Holding people responsible is only one part of the equation at this point.

If becoming teachers, cops, and government workers isn’t a reasonable option for these people, what do you suggest? There’s a labor surplus and so any decent job is going to be difficult to acquire and/or difficult to do. You are basically supporting the scamprof position, which is these losers can’t do anything else, so let’s just take their money.

toooldtocare (Aug 18, 2018 - 5:24 pm)

It's clear we're never going to agree, as you are a tireless advocate of individuals shirking personal responsibility. And what is your fixation with Columbia law school? Is the tuition ridiculous? Obviously...but no one is coercing anyone into attending. And if you can figure out that a graduate needs to make it to their fifth year as an associate in a biglaw firm, why can't the applicants? It's an adult decision, like smoking cigarettes or drinking and driving-a bad decision, but one that adults make all the time. Every bad decision isn't the result of brainwashing-it's the result of poor decision-making. We're talking about adults here; if they want to attend Columbia, so be it. To blame anyone but the applicants is ignoring the obvious: people apply to Columbia because they want to, not because they are forced to do so.
And in almost every jurisdiction, to be a teacher requires some actual advanced planning. You can't just graduate from college with your communications BA and get a job as a teacher. You keep insisting people can do this-what is your evidence?
And being a cop? Do you want to be a cop? Do you want to deal with unpleasant people all day long? And everybody is applying for government jobs-this isn't any secret. There just aren't enough to go around.
It is factually incorrect to say "anyone can get a job as a teacher" but that doesn't stop you from repeating it, over and over. Or be a cop. Or get a government job.
And no, that's not the "scamprof" position-it's the position that says adult decisions need to be made in college. You just don't go to law school because you can't find a job; you attend only if you analyze all the risks and the limited potential rewards. But telling people "go be a cop" is just nuts; we've got plenty of people who are cops who should not be cops. Do we really need more?
You've got a ton of opinions, but you never cite any authority for any of them. Why don't you just adopt the mantra, a la the 60s, of "Come the Revolution!"...everything will be different.

wearyattorney (Aug 18, 2018 - 6:06 pm)

The individuals are and will continue to be held accountable by crushing debt loads (tax payer subsidized) and poor career outcomes.

Those poor decisions are made in large part by a cultural belief that being a lawyer is a good thing. If you don’t thing that’s the case, chat with any lower income parent and let me know how many would tell their kids not to go to law school if presented with the opportunity to do so. To the extent that there is a cultural correction, it too lags behind the decline (the Columbia law school issue illuststrates that point).

Every professional career requires some planning and many times more than just a BA, law school included. Every positive outcome in a professional career is extremely difficult to achieve because there are more people looking for good work than good work available (because of outsourcing and immigration policy). Some attempts punish failure less, reward success more, and will provide more stability as the situation gets worse. You can’t outsource a teacher to India. To the extent that there are good private sector jobs right now (for a few people) the political establishment and business leadership are figuring out how to send those jobs overseas or bring people here to cut costs. Part of responsible decision making is taking those facts into account, and making the right gambles. If you try and become a teacher and fail, your chances to recover are significantly higher than if you try law. Same deal with government work. Same deal with cops.

You keep asking me what I want to do. It doesn’t matter what I want to do or wanted to do. The reality is we are in decline because of extremely bad economic policy and being a cop, as difficult as it may be, is better than the alternatives. If you want social mobility, you play the cards available.

The scamprof position is most certainly, officially and unofficially, that these people with useless BAs do not have any other options. They have the gaul to say it to students faces too. And based on what you are saying, it seems they are right? What options do kids with useless BAs have? Going back to school for teaching isn’t an option, going back and getting a STEM degree isn’t possible, getting government work isn’t possible, and being a cop is too hard. So... law school?

toooldtocare (Aug 18, 2018 - 8:07 pm)

What posts are you reading? Where did I ask you what you wanted to do? I have asked, repeatedly, for any objective support for your opinions. Where are all these teaching jobs you can get with just a non-education major BA? What do they pay? Where are all these unfilled government jobs? What millenial college grad do you know who wants to be a cop?
So now you want kids to go back and get a STEM degree on top of the worthless BA? Well, that's new; how do they fund that? And how does someone who hasn't taken math since the 10th grade pass college-level courses?
And what's with the "you play the cards available" excuse-what exactly does that mean? That you go to the police academy? You do follow the news, right? With cops all across this country getting caught on tape committing crimes in the name of the law, right? So go be a cop? Don't we have enough cops in this country who have no business being cops? So now we should make it the job of last resort?
And where are all these unfilled great-paying government jobs?
You can't decide whether to adopt tough love-go be a cop, as you gotta "play the cards available" vs. it's society's fault-those "cultural belief(s)" are real killers.
You response, no doubt, will be another fact-free diatribe. There's no point in addressing your posts any further, since it's clear you can't be constrained with things like the facts.
And do you actually know any millenials? Or any cops?
Again, many sociological observations about "cultural beliefs" and not a shred of empiracal-or even anecdotal-evidence.

wearyattorney (Aug 18, 2018 - 8:51 pm)

You expressly asked me “do you want to be a cop?” Hence my reply as to it’s irrelevant what I want to do.

You don’t believe there are any vacancies for history teachers or do you believe they are ridiculously competitive to get (like anything else)?

Flawed personal responsibility, mistaken cultural beliefs and bad government policy can exist simultaneously. Hold the kids accountable, by all means, but if the flow of federal dollars is going to stop filling law school coffers, the culture’s view of being a lawyer is going to have to change (the government isn’t going to turn off the spigot).

All good jobs are scarce because of flawed economic policy. If you try and become a call dispatcher (just one example of a government job) in Chicago, and it doesn’t work out, you have less problems than if you go to law school and fail. When I say play the cards, I mean take a chance on the options that will hurt the least if you fail, because everything is a long shot.

Most jobs are tough and things are going to get harder for all working people because of bad economic policy. Cops have it tough, no doubt. The prosecutor making half the money without a pension has it worse (and becoming a prosecutor is a real long shot).

What do you recommend that people with worthless BAs do other than “boot straps” and personal responsibility? Anything that offers a middle class wage with continual stability is going to be a long shot given the country’s trajectory.

If we disagree, we disagree. No harm in it. I hope if some kid is reading this he or she doesn’t think it’s law school or retail with the useless BA. I hope he or she takes a shot at something else.

toooldtocare (Aug 18, 2018 - 8:57 pm)

And I hope anyone reading this also does some research and looks for actual, you know, facts.
Again you've got a ton of opinions-any facts to back them up? Again, where are these teaching job vacancies for history majors with no education certificate? It's great to have strong opinions; it would be even better if you gave some-really any-support. So where are these teaching jobs?

wearyattorney (Aug 18, 2018 - 9:13 pm)

I never suggested you didn’t need a teaching certificate, but I am almost certain a teaching certificate or any other post-college credential degree (except a medical or dental degree) is going to be cheaper than law school. You also won’t be overqualified for every single job on the face of the earth if you give it a go and fail.

Here are openings, including teacher openings (non STEM), for the San Diego municipal system:

Not all of these jobs are desirable obviously, but many are, and many will likely (not definitely) offer better overall life outcomes than trying to be a lawyer. Most of them will be extremely difficult to get, require more than a BA and there will be hundreds of applicants for each, but the odds aren’t that much worse than law and the consequence of failure is definitely less.

Now, since I clearly don’t have a handle on the facts, what is your recommendation for those who have a worthless BA? Other then go do your own research. Do you have any?

toooldtocare (Aug 19, 2018 - 2:12 pm)

ALL of the jobs require additional schoolwork(think tuition $$$)for a BA to get the credential, as well as either single or multi-subject certification. Did you bother to read the requirement for getting a credential?-here they are
So yes, more time and money-and look at the jobs themselves-either substitute teacher or be part of a "pool". And if you're in the pool, then you'll be "considered for full-time, part-time and substitute positions." In other words, these aren't offering full time permanent employment to anyone-at this point the best you can hope for is to be part of a pool of candidates to be "considered".
And did you completely ignore these job requirements will cost time and money?-oh wait, on your authority "but I am almost certain a teaching going to be cheaper than law school."

Cheaper? Maybe, but it's a false comparison. The choice isn't law school or X; the choice is taking control of your decision making in college, or before.

So your advice:
The jobs market stinks, play your cards, be a cop OR
Go back to school and be a teacher OR
Network, network, network OR
Move to Nebraska because all the jobs are there(sorry, that's the law school scam advice).

So no, you don't have a handle on the facts, as you assiduously ignore the details required for these jobs.
The better course is to think BEFORE college, and make an informed decision which will lead to job.

wearyattorney (Aug 19, 2018 - 2:48 pm)

So are you suggesting if a kid didn’t think things through before college and has a worthless BA, it’s lights out? (That’s the scamprof position. Law school or bust with the worthless BA).

What is the answer for someone that has a worthless BA? You are saying my suggestion is foolish, so what’s the answer? Other than “do research” and “think it through.”

Not all of those teaching jobs were sub jobs, and I didn’t suggest getting any of those jobs would be easy or cheap, but again, it’s better than law school.

Also, some of those jobs weren’t teaching jobs, people can try and refrain for those. Again, not easy, but cheaper, less time consuming, and less risk than law school.

My advice is unless you are rich or absolutely elite, eg Hamilton scholarship at Columbia, try to get any municipal job in a rich portion of the country that has some form of unionization. Based on your circumstances, skills, and preferences, the type of job will vary. Getting such a job isn’t going to be easy or cheap, but the attempt will be easier and cheaper than law. If you succeed at it, life will be better than most “successful” law outcomes, and if you fail the punishment won’t nearly be as severe.

There is no easy answer anymore. You take the least expensive and least harmful option available (where failing doesn’t destroy you and where success provides some measure of stability), do your absolute best, and try and make it work.

adamb (Aug 20, 2018 - 11:53 am)

Serious question: I agree with most of this discussion where you both agree on the problems but have slight disgreements about the degree of responsibility of deseprate youth - but what does ID politics have to do with the law school scam aside from immigration and affirmative action?

(I have been out of this discussion for awhile as I finally am career elite after playing the solo game for five years and beating the last boss with only 10 hit points.)

wearyattorney (Aug 20, 2018 - 1:07 pm)

Read the article Campos posted on the unsustainable tuition of Columbia law school. (We are at the point that if you go there on loans and get big law, you probably still have a major problem.).

After you read that, read the comment section. The discussion is dominated about white privilege and things of that nature.

There’s a lot on how Ginsburg went through hell and was discriminated against, etc.

Massive government funded scam benefiting rich liberal elites? Deflect and distract with discussion of identity politics.

If you want more substance, read the scamprofs arguments on how the bar needed to be eliminated when applicants plumetted and people couldn’t pass the bar. The bar exam became a racist examination.

Identity politics is the sword of all scams.

Side note: I crack up laughing when I hear about the discrimination of types like Ginsburg. She’s the epitome of the con that is liberalism. She wanted to get power for herself so she can discriminate against other people. If you have a perfect LSAT, perfect GPA, graduate top of your class, but elect not to become a debt serf by attending a place like Columbia, Ginsberg doesn’t believe you should breathe the same air as she does. (Because there’s nothing more egalitarian than telling poor people if they want a shot at being lawyers then they need to become debt serfs). In contrast, the guy who was really poor, who dealt with the real hardcore southern racism, and rose to the Supreme Court 100 percent on his own and without complaint, hires people from normal schools on the regular. Hint: the enlightened conservative African American legal eagle knows what liberalism is really about, and it ain’t about equality or helping the poor.

toooldtocare (Aug 20, 2018 - 4:26 pm)

An aggrieved neocon-it all makes sense now! The blaming cultural norms, Boomers, claiming makes perfect sense.

Ok, not quite; you need to be more consistent. Don't send us to the comments and tell us "There’s a lot on how Ginsburg went through hell and was discriminated against, etc" and then later in the same post describe Ginsburg as the most awful person on Earth; it detracts from your argument, such as it is.

And add a few more conspiracy theories; something along the lines of the Trilateral Commission running the Law School Scam with the help of Robert Mueller and the Deep State.

wearyattorney (Aug 20, 2018 - 4:28 pm)

Neocon!!! Those are fighting words. :)

Ginsburg and her ilk are doing what was done to her by different means and based on different criteria. I don’t expect different.

section8rick (Aug 20, 2018 - 8:11 pm)

Because some people claim that limiting law school enrollment, or shutting down the bottom-ranked schools, is racist. Right? Haven't the fine folks at Cooley made this claim in the past?

wutwutwut (Aug 18, 2018 - 10:26 am)

"...and 2/3 of the comments are about identity politics and how bad white males are."

You've just characterized pretty much every LGM comments section for the last 8 years.

jdcumlaude (Aug 21, 2018 - 6:02 pm)

Can confirm...teaching school is the greatest regret I have in life....owned by loans but now at least my insurance is cheap and my job is secure....and I do doc review in the summer for extra cash.

I listened to boomers who worked hard for not a lot of of money and heard stories. It is toxic. Just ignore the stories from people over the age of 50 and make an informed choice.

midlaw (Aug 17, 2018 - 5:36 pm)


onehell (Aug 17, 2018 - 12:52 pm)

Some bad advice still here. Travel the world first? On whose dime? Intern in a law office? You'll get the same image they project to clients, success and confidence. It will only want you to go all the more, because it won't give you the real picture.

Consider "night school" so you can "pay as you go?" Um, no, the worst schools charge just as much as the good ones. There is no way to "pay as you go" when tuition is $60,000 per year.

toooldtocare (Aug 17, 2018 - 1:01 pm)

I found that puzzling, too-it seemed their points at the end completely contradicted the good advice given at the beginning of the article.

wallypancake (Aug 17, 2018 - 1:16 pm)

The cat is out of the bag for a long time. If an adult chooses to go to law school then let him or her go. What's your issue? The scam? The information is out there. People do stupid things all the time. Let them waste their money. Law School could be great but do a cost-benefit analysis. If an adult analysis is "why not?" then go for it. Wearyattorney, Nando, and the rest have done a good job in spreading information that law school is not an automatic ticket to the upper middle class. Not sure why they still get worked up, this subject is trite.

wearyattorney (Aug 17, 2018 - 2:18 pm)

It’s not “their money.” It’s the tax payers money. If they can con these idiots to go without federal dollars, good on them. I find it detestable that law school professors get free federal money under these circumstances.

If you get the government out of the funding game, I’m with you.

wallypancake (Aug 17, 2018 - 2:29 pm)

Ok. Based on that no one should get a mortgage either because the mortgage is bought by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

wearyattorney (Aug 17, 2018 - 2:40 pm)

If the real default rates are significant enough and tied to price inflation caused by said buying, yeah, that’s true.

Is there a mortgage equivalent to IBR?

dingbat (Aug 17, 2018 - 7:16 pm)


wearyattorney (Aug 17, 2018 - 7:35 pm)

I don’t think those are in remotely the same league, although HARP has its problems. And adjustment in the interest rate is not the same thing as completely tying a loan to an ability of someone to pay it off.

Also, as far as I know, it doesn’t apply to new loans.

mtbislife (Aug 17, 2018 - 2:38 pm)

Because we don’t want our people Becoming depression and substance abuse statistics.

patenttrollnj (Aug 18, 2018 - 1:48 am)

" ... Because it’s such a stressful profession, burnout is common"

I laugh when I read pablum like this. People in law don't burn out. They AGE OUT!

Consider this: isn't engineering stressful? Isn't medicine stressful? Isn't finance stressful? Still, I'm not hearing large numbers of people in said other professions jumping ship and/or "burning out" due to stress.

There are jobs in these other industries, so people sit around and deal with the stress and headaches associated therewith. If they can't handle it, they can either take a less stressful position within the same profession and sacrifice the higher salary for better work/life balance--or, maybe, move to do something else.

In law, we pretend to "burn out" because it's easier to admit that than it is to admit the truth.

onehell (Aug 20, 2018 - 4:35 pm)

Engineering and medicine are stressful, sure. But when a doctor goes into the OR, they don't send in another doctor to try and kill the patient.

Everyone you interact with will always share the same basic goal in these other examples. Everyone wants that machine to work or that bridge to stand up or that code to run or that patient to survive. You might disagree on the means, but everyone always agrees on the ends. But lawyers are always trying to get one over on each other, whether in litigation or in the back-and-forth of contract redlining.

Also, if you're in engineering or medicine, you are producing the product the organization sells and that the buyer wants to buy. A lawyer, OTOH, is always a cost that everyone wishes could be avoided. You are, at best, a necessary evil. And at worst, you're perceived as picking unnecessary and pedantic fights. Who cares if that contract is worded in such a way that you could end up indemnifying someone against their own negligence? It's all just "boilerplate" that no one will ever read anyway and of course nothing will go wrong; the two CEOs struck this deal on the golf course and they trust and respect one another. Get out of the way, you're not running at the speed of business, just bless the deal so we can blame you if anything goes wrong and otherwise stay out of the way!

Being seen like this is a real drag on self-esteem, and it's a very different kind of stress from that endured in "normal" jobs.

patenttrollnj (Aug 21, 2018 - 10:23 am)

Personally, that doesn't bug me. The profession is what it is, and I knew what I was signing-up for--at least with respect to what our role as attorneys is.

My issue is the lack of jobs.

onehell (Aug 21, 2018 - 7:24 pm)

Of course. I was more responding to your "burn out" comment, and I do indeed think there is a burn-out issue, even amongst attorneys who are lucky enough to be gainfully employed. 2000+ billable hours leads to a lot of alcoholism, suicidality, etc.

patenttrollnj (Aug 23, 2018 - 3:40 pm)

Certainly, there is "burn out" in all professions.

However, I have a problem with the law school scam machine and its ABA apologists dismissing the very real "age out" problem in law as it merely being lawyers burning-out.

toooldtocare (Aug 23, 2018 - 6:41 pm)

teachers: an "epidemic" apparently

Every profession claims its members suffer from burnout, and all manner of articles can be found to support that thesis.
As ptroll points out, however, in the law there is a very real "age out" problem with is essentially ignored.

acerimmer (Aug 18, 2018 - 6:06 am)

You can do anything that you want, as long as you pay cash up front. The second you borrow money, you're gambling. Money is too hard won to risk on gambling. Case Closed.

fuckup (Aug 18, 2018 - 4:55 pm)

Cops have lots of stressful issues. Fireman is where it's at if you just have a mediocre education and you're in good shape.

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