Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

Would spamming big law apps be a waste?

Here's a short breakdown of my current situation. https://w needajob09/17/18
You are definitely wasting your time at big law. For a lot nycatt09/17/18
I live a train ride away from most big law firms in NYC. Wou needajob09/17/18
You don't understand hiring managers. They absolutely don't nycatt09/17/18
No. You won’t be allowed in the building. therewillbeblood09/17/18
Yup. Biglaw will never hire you with that background. Wh bsj2309/18/18
Not understanding your plan. People hire employees because t wallypancake09/17/18
I think spamming or presenting in person would be a waste of jd4hire09/17/18
Sorry, guy. You are wasting your time with biglaw at this po superttthero09/17/18
"We can't afford to... have a wedding" This last can cost wutwutwut09/17/18
Agreed, my wife and I rented a government park for $800. Fam nycatt09/17/18
Whoa, am I reading you right that the restaurant dinner was wutwutwut09/17/18
Ya, restaurant was 4k in my wife's hometown. It is a really nycatt09/17/18
Ok, will give you that 60-70 a person is a great price to a wutwutwut09/18/18
1) Biglaw is a waste of time. Sending out hundreds of applic anothernjlawyer09/17/18
Wouldn't bother with biglaw. If you are thinking of getting justdoingok09/17/18
I would have taken this post seriously but OP asked whether themapmaster09/17/18
Ok: Give up the Biglaw dream. It won't happen. Give seri acerimmer09/17/18
How the heck did you pay your student loans off with factory needajob09/18/18
15 bucks an hour, working 60 hours a week, with OT, is $54,0 acerimmer09/18/18
I agree with everything here minus the getting married makes jd4hire09/18/18
Well, not to be a TOTAL jerk, but nothing works if you sodom acerimmer09/18/18
JD4, interesting. There's another poster on here (David-som wutwutwut09/18/18
With a 1963 appended, unlikely I'd be up for a wife swap. W jd4hire09/19/18
"we're in a good spot" Good, here's to looking forward to wutwutwut09/19/18
I know it seems like Im being an entitled brat, but I've alw needajob09/18/18
Screw the supposed "successful" people you see on social med wutwutwut09/18/18
This is good advice. mtbislife09/18/18
I actually tried this. I spammed every single large - mid si ericcrapton09/18/18
At least you have a fiance, who has been patient enough to s caj11109/19/18
At least you have a fiance, who has been patient enough to s caj11109/19/18
Stay away from social media. As wutwutwut pointed out, the l ejs201709/19/18
Are you trolling? You're not getting big law with that backg isthisit09/18/18

needajob (Sep 17, 2018 - 1:29 pm)

Here's a short breakdown of my current situation.
https://www.jdunderground.com/law/thread.php?threadId=162813

I graduated in 2011 and did doc review for 3 years and then went solo for another 3 years. I didn't earn enough so finally left the law altogether. I'm currently doing medical coding but I'm more miserable than I was at any point being a lawyer. Me and my fiance both drive Uber on the side so we barely see eachother anymore. We can't afford to have a child, buy a house, or have a wedding. The 115k in student debt I have makes it even harder. My fiance has 60k in student loans herself. Im constantly arguing with my fiance and her father about our financial situation and it's starting to break me down mentally and emotionally. I'm a broken man and am starting to hate everything and everyone including myself. Something has to change.

Am I wasting my time spamming big law apps? Will I get any callbacks?

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nycatt (Sep 17, 2018 - 2:03 pm)

You are definitely wasting your time at big law. For a lot of reasons. I worked at a large firm (100 attorneys) that was highly rated in my practice area, but the people from the firm that tried to apply to big law still couldn't get a job at a big firm (with a few exceptions). I.E., people with relevant experience and jobs couldn't get hired most of the time, so you probably wont either. The other thing is, once someone is 8 to 10 years out of school, as you almost are, you must bring in business (which you cant do) or be fired, except in some niche areas (which you dont have experience in).

I would try to make it as a solo. It is very hard, but it is actually possible if you put in the research and work. Or get very good at computer coding (not sure if you just enter numbers in spread sheets or if you code). Listen, everything great in life takes a lot of work, and not everyone is willing to do it. You should learn a valuable skill or try to put in the time to build a practice - its better than giving up and being miserable for the rest of your life.

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needajob (Sep 17, 2018 - 2:21 pm)

I live a train ride away from most big law firms in NYC. Would it help if I went in person and tried to speak with some hiring managers?

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nycatt (Sep 17, 2018 - 3:04 pm)

You don't understand hiring managers. They absolutely don't want to see you. You get an interview on the strength of your resume or a referral. They would not see you if you came to their office.

You don't have any relevant skills for big law, and for each opening, there will be a hundred people who have most of the relevant skills, and a few with all the relevant skills. Further, you are aged out of big law and are two old for big law unless you develop a 1M book of business. And if you do, you would want to keep it for yourself and be your own boss.

Some hot shot government lawyers can transfer too, but that is real government superstars in the practice areas that are important to big law.

You can succeed, I am not saying you can't, but not in big law.

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therewillbeblood (Sep 17, 2018 - 5:00 pm)

No. You won’t be allowed in the building.

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bsj23 (Sep 18, 2018 - 3:50 am)

Yup. Biglaw will never hire you with that background.

Why are you so stressed about your debt, though? I have twice as much as you and I don't give a bleep. Just go on IBR, and when the US Treasury is forced to forgive your debt in the future, let them deal with the mess they created by handing out unlimited student loans with no oversight.

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wallypancake (Sep 17, 2018 - 2:37 pm)

Not understanding your plan. People hire employees because the employee has skills that the employer desires, not because the employee needs a job. This is applicable in any field. The employer cares about himself and his business, not about you. They are looking for what other people can do for them, not what other people need. What are you offering them?

In their minds (fair or not), three years of doc review and three years of solo is a bottom-feeder lawyer and not worth their time. Don't waste your time.

You should think about what you can do to be successful. Many have been highly successful while starting with far less than what you have right now.

"I'm a broken man and am starting to hate everything and everyone including myself."

With that attitude, no one wants you. People will sense that you're broken and thoroughly depressed, further limiting your marketability. You need to change your attitude if you are ever going to get anywhere.

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jd4hire (Sep 17, 2018 - 3:06 pm)

I think spamming or presenting in person would be a waste of your time. I'd focus on anything legally related at all (and be willing to move).

I'd really search government positions on every level (with focus on muni/state) and non-profits in an effort to qualify for PSLF.

If you can't find something that qualifies for PSLF, I'd look into compliance or leaving the law altogether.

Best of luck and not to be a debbie downer, but the BigLaw boat sailed long ago for you. If not OCI, immediately after LS, or have an extremely compelling reason based on experience, you're not going to get big law now.

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superttthero (Sep 17, 2018 - 3:27 pm)

Sorry, guy. You are wasting your time with biglaw at this point. I'd say that you are even wasting your time by looking at the ads/firm sites and applying to posted biglaw positions.

My advice is to "spam" local, state, and federal gov't by applying to pretty much every job you could do that is posted, even if the pay is low.

IBR your loans for 10 year forgiveness and work your way up whatever you get. Easier said than done, but you are pretty much done with respect to BIGLAW. The sooner you let go of thinking you are going to be hired for a mid/big law position, the better. Your resume in biglaw is the equivalent of a bottom 10% MCAT/GPA score in a med school admission office--it is DOA.

BIGLAW wants top grades from top school and/or documented and extensive experience in gov't or another biglaw firm--if you don't have either, stop trying.

Best of luck.

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wutwutwut (Sep 17, 2018 - 3:36 pm)

"We can't afford to... have a wedding"

This last can cost very little if you two really do want to get married. Even in a church, if that's what she (her family) wants. Just skip the reception altogether, or get the church ladies to hold a cake/punch only reception.

Agree with all the above that spamming biglaw with employment applications is worthless (even assuming OP thread title is earnest).

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nycatt (Sep 17, 2018 - 4:06 pm)

Agreed, my wife and I rented a government park for $800. Family only. Then we walked to a restaurant a few blocks away. Total cost was $5k.

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wutwutwut (Sep 17, 2018 - 5:26 pm)

Whoa, am I reading you right that the restaurant dinner was ca. $4200?

I was thinking more along the lines of under $1k...

https://www.weddingwire.com/wedding-forums/how-much-did-you-pay-to-rent-church-for-ceremony/13e7f5d8189d9de1.html

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nycatt (Sep 17, 2018 - 10:57 pm)

Ya, restaurant was 4k in my wife's hometown. It is a really good restaurant, and for 60 or so people, that is a great price.

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wutwutwut (Sep 18, 2018 - 1:49 am)

Ok, will give you that 60-70 a person is a great price to a nice dinner, and including drinks I'd imagine. But I thought we'd be trying to give op CHEAP options. Haha.

Wife and I were so poor at the time we did salads, pizza and beer for 45 at right at 1k. And our "honeymoon" was a week in a national park lodge for under 1k total.

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anothernjlawyer (Sep 17, 2018 - 5:23 pm)

1) Biglaw is a waste of time. Sending out hundreds of applications and getting no response is going to make you feel even worse and will actually be counterproductive.

2) You can get married for under 100 bucks with a marriage license at a courthouse. No matter how big the party is, at the end of the day, you're just married.

3) Agree that applying for government jobs may be a good idea. If you're a "train ride" from NYC, even a government clerical position is going to pay fairly well. Don't underestimate competition for these jobs though. Everybody who didn't go to college in their little town is counting on their town-committee-member cousin to get them the cushy gig.

4) Everywhere I look, they're hiring truck drivers. Consider getting a CDL?

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justdoingok (Sep 17, 2018 - 5:24 pm)

Wouldn't bother with biglaw. If you are thinking of getting back into law, you may have more luck with small law or mid law, focusing in the areas you worked while a solo. You can work up the contacts you made while soloing. Good luck!

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themapmaster (Sep 17, 2018 - 7:15 pm)

I would have taken this post seriously but OP asked whether he would get any callbacks. Yeah, right. Pretty sure this is a flame.

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acerimmer (Sep 17, 2018 - 10:05 pm)

Ok:

Give up the Biglaw dream. It won't happen. Give serious thought to a career change. I used factory work and construction - Overtime pay got me out of debt. Gov't jobs can come with PSLF even if they aren't law. You might get stuck back in the Doc Review pit.

More importantly, have a full, honest talk with your fiance about money. People are afraid to talk money honestly because of embarrassment and a belief that money is dirty business. Listen to some Dave Ramsey Youtube clips together. Make a plan together to scrape up emergency savings, and a plan to get out of debt. It may not be a GOOD plan, but make a plan together.... "honey, we're fighting about money, and I don't want to do that any more, let's try and figure this out." Eventually, she has to have a similar talk with her father, it shouldn't be up to you to put him in order. People, Money, Things. In that order.

Downsize as much as possible. Lower expenses means more disposable income to throw at loans. It worked for the philosopher Epicurus, it will work for you. The goal here is to Maximize Disposable Income.

Getting married makes you richer, that is statistical fact. You share expenses and pay less taxes overall. Do it on the cheap.

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needajob (Sep 18, 2018 - 1:16 am)

How the heck did you pay your student loans off with factory and construction work? After 6 years of legal work I have barely put a dent in my loans.

And I agree with your advice on downsizing. Downsizing and cutting expenses is something my fiance and I have been doing for years now. Two years ago we moved from Manhattan to Brooklyn which reduced our rent from $4300 a month to $2100 a month. We also eat out much less and haven't been on a proper vacation in 4 years. But with federal and high NY state taxes, student loan payments, child support payments, helping my fiance's sick mother, relatively high rent etc. it just seems like we can't make any advancements.

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acerimmer (Sep 18, 2018 - 2:45 am)

15 bucks an hour, working 60 hours a week, with OT, is $54,0000. Monthly take-home 3400. Rent in Midwest is cheap, $500 a month, add in utilities, food, and gas, you can live on $1,000 a month. So, you have more than 2 grand for student loans, per month. Pay the minimums, and throw all extra cash at the smallest balance. That loan goes away, move on to the next smallest balance.

Try leaving New York.

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jd4hire (Sep 18, 2018 - 10:31 am)

I agree with everything here minus the getting married makes you richer. Generally true, but not so for my wife and I due to student loans. Both of us had huge debts. Extremely long story not worthy of telling, but end of the day, family member purchased my debt (thus I don't have true student loans on the book even though I make more than income based repayment). This screwed up my wife and I as my income can get considered for her IBR on the PSLF. To avoid this, we file married filing separately. We miss helpful tax credits/ are capped with others. We would be better of financially divorcing until her loans are forgiven under PSLF.

Unique situation, but it can happen. And I sat down with an accountant who deals with student loans. She said that in her near 40-year career she has counseled others to file separately three times, me being one of them.

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acerimmer (Sep 18, 2018 - 12:09 pm)

Well, not to be a TOTAL jerk, but nothing works if you sodomize yourself with unmanageable debt.

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wutwutwut (Sep 18, 2018 - 2:36 pm)

JD4, interesting. There's another poster on here (David-some number appended, 1963?) who is in the opposite situation where they have to do MFS because he has a lot of loans and his wife makes a lot of money.

You should marry his wife and vice versa. (j/k)

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jd4hire (Sep 19, 2018 - 8:53 am)

With a 1963 appended, unlikely I'd be up for a wife swap. Who knows though! Honestly, we're in a good spot. We just have to wait out her loan forgiveness (t minus 8 years). I'll keep cutting my monthly check in perpetuity.

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wutwutwut (Sep 19, 2018 - 1:20 pm)

"we're in a good spot"

Good, here's to looking forward to 2026.

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needajob (Sep 18, 2018 - 1:31 am)

I know it seems like Im being an entitled brat, but I've always been a kind person to others and have always tried to lift people up and encourage them when they are down. I just feel like screaming sometimes and asking why is this happening to me? Im a good person so why am I suffering like a monster? There's so many truly fμcked up and evil people in this world who don't feel any pain and live lives of comfort and security. Of all my classmates I still keep in contact with I'm the only one suffering like this, everyone else has a marriage, house, kids, nice cars, and take regular vacations. I stopped going on Facebook and Instagram because seeing my classmates being successful has truly fμcked with my mental health. I just feel like fleeing this stupid capitalistic, materialistic, and exploitative society. Everything is about money money money and me me me. The rat race has made us slaves. You work until you die in debt but not before you lay on your deathbed wondering was all the work worth it.

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wutwutwut (Sep 18, 2018 - 1:58 am)

Screw the supposed "successful" people you see on social media.

I mean, they're most likely over their eyeballs in debt and just wondering when a tiny hiccough will see them filing bk.

You as a couple have more than a couple things going for you. You as a couple make more than you have to spend (even if less than you'd like). Your big debts are manageable via gummint programs.

You are still in love, which beats 90% of the couples out there with one being a jd (so many divorces, so little time).
Work that angle and you don't have to be ashamed of where you are.

And if you can "get over" the fact that your lady currently makes more than you, statistics say you'll be outstripping her in just a few years when you fall into your new gig.

Edit: and b4 the goog censors get upset, that's not a judgment call that one thing is better than another. Just statistics.

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mtbislife (Sep 18, 2018 - 10:52 am)

This is good advice.

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ericcrapton (Sep 18, 2018 - 10:36 pm)

I actually tried this. I spammed every single large - mid sized firm in my state. I work for a prestigious government agency, and while some of them replied in a nice way, none were interested. The path to big law is a narrow and competitive one. I agree with the other posters who tell you to keep applying to government jobs like it is your mission in life. It may take a lot of applications, but your life will be a lot easier once you land one. That, or you will need to become a successful entrepreneur. Good luck with whatever you decide.

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caj111 (Sep 19, 2018 - 8:06 am)

At least you have a fiance, who has been patient enough to stay with you all this time. S/he must really love you. There's no dollar amount you can put on that. Trust me, there are a lot of fabulously wealthy couple out there who are only happy on the outside. I've met many of them. All the money in the world couldn't make their marriage a healthy one.

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caj111 (Sep 19, 2018 - 8:06 am)

At least you have a fiance, who has been patient enough to stay with you all this time. S/he must really love you. There's no dollar amount you can put on that. Trust me, there are a lot of fabulously wealthy couple out there who are only happy on the outside. I've met many of them. All the money in the world couldn't make their marriage a healthy one.

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ejs2017 (Sep 19, 2018 - 12:55 pm)

Stay away from social media. As wutwutwut pointed out, the lives portrayed on the likes of Facebook and Linkedin are fantasies.

A guy in my state recently killed his wife and two little kids. Prior to the incident the wife's Facebook page presented this utopian model family. Turns out that the guy was cheating on her, they had deep financial issues, there was abuse, etc.

On spamming 'BigLaw,' yes, abandon that. You have some good things going for you but admittedly times for lawyers (and a lot of other people) are tough, despite the glowing statistics.

Think about changing your practice focus. Data privacy and cyber security are growing. Look in that direction. Or, as suggested, hang out a shingle, build a practice, be your own boss, and be patient.

Read "The Obstacle is the Way" by Ryan Holiday for some philosophical perspective. Good luck and hang in there.

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isthisit (Sep 18, 2018 - 8:35 am)

Are you trolling? You're not getting big law with that background unless you bring in a big book of business which you don't have.

Go back into solo or small law. You can develop your practice niche and start building a tidy book of business. Pride and lack of money is [email protected] with you OP. I'd be pretty depressed if I spent my day medical coding.

You can get married for under a G. Get married at the courthouse and pay for a small (10 people max) reception at a local restaurant. Promise wife you'll do it big in the future when you renew your vows and your practice picks up.

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