Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

Standing Your Ground Against the Judge

Hostile from the first moment, manifest indicia of bias. redemptionsong09/29/18
Judges are asses about 60% of the time no matter what. Just nycatt09/29/18
Are you a licensed lawyer or a pro see looser? isthisit09/29/18
Every crazy pro se, when they lose, say the judge was biased nycatt09/29/18
You can respectfully stand your ground, but once a judge has a8464809/29/18
I've seen infrequent posts from OP for the last couple years wutwutwut09/29/18
Then next step is for OP to explain why this is bias. I wan nycatt09/29/18
Not a crazy pro se. Licensed attorney with a few years down redemptionsong09/30/18
Think carefully about what’s in the best interest of your dingbat09/30/18
Can you go into detail about what happened? nycatt09/30/18
I'd never ask a judge to recuse himself, even when they disc thirdtierlaw09/30/18
I practice immigration law and so I'm up against plenty of f isthisit09/30/18
Professor back in law school, who was a judge, told me I cou redemptionsong10/01/18
Your first mistake is listening to your professor about the isthisit10/01/18
You're confusing weighing risk/reward with cowardice. I'm no thirdtierlaw10/01/18
Wonder if that professor ever had court? In all seriousness, a8464810/01/18
As per above, the professor was a judge himself who had prac redemptionsong10/03/18
Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Good luck! jeffm10/03/18
redemptionsong (Sep 29, 2018 - 12:01 pm)

Hostile from the first moment, manifest indicia of bias.

Motion for recusal filed. Now speaking slowly and carefully.

Experiences? Advice?

Reply
nycatt (Sep 29, 2018 - 1:08 pm)

Judges are asses about 60% of the time no matter what. Just want to check to make sure that you have been in front of a judge enough to know the difference between regular asshole judge and bias asshole judge. How often have you been in front of a judge?

Reply
isthisit (Sep 29, 2018 - 2:08 pm)

Are you a licensed lawyer or a pro see looser?

Reply
nycatt (Sep 29, 2018 - 3:34 pm)

Every crazy pro se, when they lose, say the judge was biased. Like clockwork. Good call.

No offense redemptionsong, maybe you have real bias on your hands, but Occam's razor would suggest that most likely you are a crazy pro se, so we need to rule that out.

Reply
a84648 (Sep 29, 2018 - 10:01 pm)

You can respectfully stand your ground, but once a judge has ruled, back down. Recusal motions are nuclear motions and should only be filed as a last resort. Judges remember who have filed recusal motions...

Reply
wutwutwut (Sep 29, 2018 - 11:29 pm)

I've seen infrequent posts from OP for the last couple years or so, pretty sure s/he's a lawyer.

Reply
nycatt (Sep 29, 2018 - 11:45 pm)

Then next step is for OP to explain why this is bias. I want to know what happened in the case, how strong is the case for either side (is her case border line frivolous), and what constitutes the purported bias behavior. Did you lose the case?

I have never seen bias ever, although when the other side does a crappy job, I see what might appear to a to be bias, but it is only a bias towards the competent attorney, which is not quite bias. It is the judge urging the bad attorney not to lose the case. They need to know they are losing, and screaming accomplishes that. But judges have yelled at all sides often for no reason. Judge yelling is normal.

Reply
redemptionsong (Sep 30, 2018 - 4:29 am)

Not a crazy pro se. Licensed attorney with a few years down and courtroom experience who has never seen anything like this before. I have never moved for recusal in any previous case before anyone. I am pretty humble though not deferential, as everyone should be.

Of course, I cannot go into too much detail. Just curious as to the experiences and insights of others.

Reply
dingbat (Sep 30, 2018 - 10:28 am)

Think carefully about what’s in the best interest of your career:

A) losing a case
B) pissing off a judge (and potentially having a black mark on your record that every judge will hate)

Reply
nycatt (Sep 30, 2018 - 2:41 pm)

Can you go into detail about what happened?

Reply
thirdtierlaw (Sep 30, 2018 - 10:51 am)

I'd never ask a judge to recuse himself, even when they disclose on the record that there may be a chance of a conflict, I just say, "your honor, we are all bound by the rules of professional responsibility and I've never had the slightest reason to question your integrity, so if you believe you can be unbiased, then I'll take you at your word."

It's pure unadulterated sucking up, but it also asks them to keep their possible biases in mind. Most importantly, I didn't tick off a judge I'll be appearing in front of multiple times a year, if not month.

I've gotten yelled at by judges. Everyone who has litigated has at some point.

Reply
isthisit (Sep 30, 2018 - 5:24 pm)

I practice immigration law and so I'm up against plenty of former government attorneys now appointed as IJs. Aside from direct conflicts, I let their biased bullsh!t slide. Normally I only get grief when my relief claims are weak. Most IJs will be vocal about their distaste in weak relief claims. But it is what it is. I'll inevitably be up before them soon.

No need to muddy my rep with a judge for the sake of one client. I've got plenty more clients waiting to be seen by the same judge.

Reply
redemptionsong (Oct 1, 2018 - 4:54 am)

Professor back in law school, who was a judge, told me I could not be afraid of the judge, ever, if I wanted to practice law. And I feel that an independent bar is just if not more important than an independent judiciary.

It is pending so I cannot be too specific. In sum, a very hard entry into settlement negotiations with some colorful commentary and a finding that has no basis in law or fact. Aggressive out of the gate without permitting a chance to be heard.

Reply
isthisit (Oct 1, 2018 - 7:10 pm)

Your first mistake is listening to your professor about the actual practice of law.

Reply
thirdtierlaw (Oct 1, 2018 - 8:04 pm)

You're confusing weighing risk/reward with cowardice. I'm not scared of judges, at all. I'll look them in the eye and state that they are wrong.

But I've yet to have a client I was willing to forever turn a judge against me for. Filing a motion for recusal is essentially saying that the judge is dishonest and incapable of doing his job.

Let's say your motion is successful, what do you think happens when a new judge comes in? The new judge is going to come in extremely skeptical that you're just judge shopping. So now you're already starting with one strike against you.

It's your practice and your jurisdiction so you'd know better than any of us on what files, I just wouldn't have proceeded that way.

Reply
a84648 (Oct 1, 2018 - 6:09 pm)

Wonder if that professor ever had court? In all seriousness, it is not about fear but common sense. In my jurisdiction, a motion to recuse removed the current judge and a senior judge reviews the merits of the motion. In the two times I have seen this motion filed, both resulted in the senior judge sending the case back to the original judge as the motion to recuse did not have merit. You can image what that did to the attorneys reputation who filed the motion.

Reply
redemptionsong (Oct 3, 2018 - 9:09 am)

As per above, the professor was a judge himself who had practiced extensively in both civil and criminal. I am well aware that the standard is high. The motion was professionally and respectfully stated and well briefed. If there is no recusal, the case has otherwise been well managed. These motions are filed and are most often denied. Either way, the conduct I am basing the motion on is now well documented. We shall see.

Reply
jeffm (Oct 3, 2018 - 2:41 pm)

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Good luck!

Reply
Post a message in this thread