Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

CLE's Are so Stupid

It's like a stream of Dangerous Mind rip offs. Half of each loser1210/03/18
Weird. I usually attend PLI's CLE courses. While I agree t wutwutwut10/03/18
I sit in the back and do billable work or work on my sexy la isthisit10/03/18
This. dingbat10/03/18
I need to know when to put the code into the screen. When I loser1210/03/18
Ah. No "in-corpus" requirement for your state? That'd be n wutwutwut10/03/18
It's an insult that the bar treats us as if we have so littl youngbuck10/04/18
It's nothing so Orwellian - it's just a racket. Just like th onehell10/04/18
Yup. It’s a money making scheme. plumber10/04/18
TOTAL $$-making scheme. It also ticks me off that 50 differ catwoman33310/06/18
CLEs (IMHO) are a racket. Not that you can’t learn someth qdllc10/06/18
Law school is so stupid. How can we expect anything mor patenttrollnj10/07/18
Do all your “live” via NBI offerings. Use AttorneyCredit billcarson10/08/18
Local bar association tries to make every monthly meeting el qdllc10/10/18
And why are they so damn expensive? It's insane. yankeebirdie10/13/18
The large ones like PLI are expensive (e.g., $2200 for a 2-d wutwutwut10/13/18
I purchase an annual subscription through WestLegalEdCenter. blawprof10/13/18
loser12 (Oct 3, 2018 - 4:59 pm)

It's like a stream of Dangerous Mind rip offs. Half of each lecture is the lawyer trying to show off how cool and hip they are by speaking about famous clients and how cool their practice is, and maybe 45 seconds of every hour is substantive law. It isn't that the substantive law is interesting, but listening to their stupid, exaggerated, stupid glamour stories is torture.

Reply
wutwutwut (Oct 3, 2018 - 5:16 pm)

Weird. I usually attend PLI's CLE courses. While I agree that half the time the substantive law updates aren't gripping, I've not had the sort of grandstanding you mention happen.

Reply
isthisit (Oct 3, 2018 - 5:19 pm)

I sit in the back and do billable work or work on my sexy lawyer erotica novel.

Listening to CLEs is for jabronis.

Reply
dingbat (Oct 3, 2018 - 5:33 pm)

This.

Reply
loser12 (Oct 3, 2018 - 5:46 pm)

I need to know when to put the code into the screen. When I tune it out, I have to start over and listen to the vomit again.

Reply
wutwutwut (Oct 3, 2018 - 6:39 pm)

Ah. No "in-corpus" requirement for your state? That'd be nice.

Reply
youngbuck (Oct 4, 2018 - 10:41 am)

It's an insult that the bar treats us as if we have so little regard for our profession that we need to be forced to keep current on existing law. Why not send an inspector to our homes to make sure we iron our suits before going to court? This sh*t is why I'm a libertarian.

Reply
onehell (Oct 4, 2018 - 12:58 pm)

It's nothing so Orwellian - it's just a racket. Just like the private-sector certifications in HR or compliance or risk management or whatever, there has to be a source of regular revenue. No organization conveying what amounts to a Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval can sustain itself just on new certifications.

You can justify the regular dues by saying it pays for stuff like oversight and discipline, but that only works to a point. You've gotta have a revenue source that at least appears to maintain the quality of the certification and the people certified and actually provides some kind of service in exchange for money. Continuing education, provided either by the certifying authority or by someone that pays the certifying authority to accredit its courses, provides a ready answer.

It's also kinda funny how effective the private sector has been with certifications and accreditation effectively functioning so similarly to governmental regulation. Lots of employers expect to see a SHRM certification before they'll hire you. The DOE won't give your law school student loans unless the ABA has accredited you. Medicare won't pay for your hospital unless the Joint Commission has given its blessing.

Point being, the private sector regulates both organizations and individuals just as much, and sometimes more, than governmental licensure. In theory, the only value of a private-sector certification is that you can truthfully say you're certified. And yet, it's a very lucrative business model whether you're certifying individuals or accrediting entire organizations, like the ABA does for law schools or SHRM does for HR people or the Joint Commission does for hospitals or auditors do for almost any corporation of any significant size. Oftentimes, the regulators themselves even rely on these private-sector organizations to do their work for them.

So, if the private sector would essentially use little more than their trademark right to their seal of approval and employers' lazy desire to rely on such a stamp to regulate what you can or can't do, would libertarianism worldview not paradoxically result in just as much or more regulation? These private certifiers often operate for-profit and will therefore charge as much as people are willing to pay, so a libertarian free-market attitude towards licensure could paradoxically result in more regulation and rent-seeking behavior instead of less. If the for-profit certification authority needs more revenue, they just increase the continuing education requirement in the name of "quality." At least lawyers are a self-regulating profession, like how in states with mandatory bars there would often be a vote of the full membership to impose a significant dues increase.

Heck, I'm kinda surprised that universities have not yet hit on the idea of needing to keep your BA "active" with some kind of "continuing education." lol.

Reply
plumber (Oct 4, 2018 - 2:01 pm)

Yup. It’s a money making scheme.

Reply
catwoman333 (Oct 6, 2018 - 1:15 am)

TOTAL $$-making scheme. It also ticks me off that 50 different states have 50 different bar admission rules and 50 different rules re: dues/CLE requirements. We are SUPPOSED to be the UNITED States of America. Why can't the other 49 states: 1) easily, inexpensively admit attorneys from other states, 2) charge the SAME bar dues, have the SAME # of CLE hour requirements??

It's all about $$$ and perpetuation of the existence of, IMHO, TOTALLY USELESS entities (bar assns).

Reply
qdllc (Oct 6, 2018 - 7:35 am)

CLEs (IMHO) are a racket. Not that you can’t learn something useful or that you shouldn’t always be up to learning new aspects of the trade, but all most lawyers do is hunt down every free CLE they can get just to meet their annual requirements.

In law school, I attended one on EEOC issues. Afterward, I confronted the presenter and pointed out that while he was factually correct on how EEOC laws are SUPPOSED to work, the reality was quite different. He agreed which made me wonder why anyone should bother with the CLE. More than knowing the law, you need to know how it winds up working in the real world.

I know lawyers that dissuade people from pursuing legal options not because they don’t exist, but because the pragmatic reality is that they won’t likely get what the law supposedly promises.

Reply
patenttrollnj (Oct 7, 2018 - 1:08 pm)

Law school is so stupid.

How can we expect anything more of CLE ?

Reply
billcarson (Oct 8, 2018 - 9:21 am)

Do all your “live” via NBI offerings. Use AttorneyCredits.com for all your on-demands.


That is how I have avoided going in person to any of them. Maybe your jurisdiction requires a butt-in-seat course or two downtown. If so, my condolences.

Reply
qdllc (Oct 10, 2018 - 5:54 am)

Local bar association tries to make every monthly meeting eligible for CLE credit...and they hold it during lunchtime at a restaurant.

Helps members chip away at their annual requirement.

Reply
yankeebirdie (Oct 13, 2018 - 12:44 pm)

And why are they so damn expensive? It's insane.

Reply
wutwutwut (Oct 13, 2018 - 1:21 pm)

The large ones like PLI are expensive (e.g., $2200 for a 2-day, 12 credit hour class i took early this year) for a lot of reasons. Profit was mentioned above and I'm sure that's a big part of it.

But that also covers the cost of the venue (usually a hotel ballroom), food, travel for the 10 speakers if not local. I'd assume the speakers are paid something, too, but don't know that.

If I move to an employer who doesn't have a PLI account or for some other reason had to pay on my own, I'm lucky that in my state it's easy enough to scratch up the requirements for nothing more than the bar's recording fees. I think those would total 50 or 60 bucks a year. Unless I was lacking one or both of the professionalism or ethics hours, which can be hard to find in all free classes. Then I'd have to pay about 70 to get an online "update" class.

I've heard that in a lot of jx it's close to impossible to meet requirements on the cheap.

Reply
blawprof (Oct 13, 2018 - 2:36 pm)

I purchase an annual subscription through WestLegalEdCenter. My state allows 100 percent online. I pay $840 once every three years so it works out $280/year. I have a three year reporting period (MN) so I only do CLE's once every three years. Online is much better than in-person. You can just half-way listen while doing other stuff. I also taught a CLE once and earned almost all of my credits that way. I used to attend in-person through my employer but it was such a pain.

Reply
Post a message in this thread