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Comparative difficulty/rigor/workload of JD programs versus other graduate and professional programs

Recent law graduate here. How rigorous are MSW programs, for mazatec10/15/18
Get a JD preferred job and start hustling. Would have one by esquirewalletsmatter10/16/18
I think having an Ivy on my resume would be beneficial caree mazatec10/16/18
But when do you actually work and get real world experience, esquirewalletsmatter10/16/18
I really can't pass up an Ivy. mazatec10/16/18
What then? esquirewalletsmatter10/17/18
I agree w/her. Her road to law was the trigger of many stres billcarson10/17/18
What difference does it make, what would these degrees do fo wallypancake10/15/18
The name and network of an Ivy. mazatec10/16/18
There was a good thread a while back where someone went into jd4hire10/15/18
Was that onehell's post? mazatec10/15/18
Yeah it was me. In short, the classroom piece is as easy as onehell10/15/18
it depends on the program. I'm pretty sure a J.D. from Co dingbat10/15/18
Cooley is more rigorous than Yale. Cooley fails out 1/3 of t snot310/15/18
"Cooley fails out 1/3 of the class each year. " Yikes, wh mazatec10/15/18
Because the ABA is dominated by two interests: biglaw and la flharfh10/15/18
to really drive the point home, the law school administrator williamdrayton10/16/18
Exactly right. See Jay Conison, for example. dupednontraditional10/16/18
In a sense, they do. The reason they fail out a third of the onehell10/17/18
I heard today on the radio that unemployment is at a 49 year booyeah10/16/18
Absolutely right. Past graduates would have given anyt shuiz10/17/18
Hiring is down in legal profession overall. The most prev billcarson10/17/18
I am in commercial real estate litigation (with some complic nycatt10/17/18
Once you are senior associate or partner, yes. But in boomti billcarson10/17/18

mazatec (Oct 15, 2018 - 1:40 pm)

Recent law graduate here. How rigorous are MSW programs, for instance, compared to JD programs? Are you graded on a forced curve like in law school? Should I expect to spend significantly more time on classes compared to in a JD program? Is the stress level much greater? I'm just concerned that I can't "hack it" or that I'm not fit for graduate-level studies.

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esquirewalletsmatter (Oct 16, 2018 - 7:55 am)

Get a JD preferred job and start hustling. Would have one by now if you didn’t waste all this time living within your own anxiety about what you want to do as opposed to what you can do.

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mazatec (Oct 16, 2018 - 9:08 am)

I think having an Ivy on my resume would be beneficial career-wise. It's something I've always wanted to do.

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esquirewalletsmatter (Oct 16, 2018 - 6:40 pm)

But when do you actually work and get real world experience, which ultimately is all that matters. Can’t always get what you want, but if you try some time you just might find, you get what you need. Time to get to work Imho. You are very talented, just need to use those talents in a different capacity. Ships sailing for you like anyone else that remains stuck in place. Need to make moves. And hiding it out is not going to solve things.

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mazatec (Oct 16, 2018 - 11:23 pm)

I really can't pass up an Ivy.

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esquirewalletsmatter (Oct 17, 2018 - 7:55 am)

What then?

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billcarson (Oct 17, 2018 - 8:06 am)

I agree w/her. Her road to law was the trigger of many stressors. Why continue down the road? #ItDoesntGetBetter

If she does an MSW at an Ivy or a MPA, she can get a job in higher ed administration office. Yea, start low, then work up. Decent hours, great benefits, and summers are slooow and low stress.

With two years experience as a judge’s clerk... her next stop is a high stress rinky dink litigation practice... where you have 1/50 odds of breaking six figures. She is as mentally vanquished before practicing as I was six months ago after 3.5 years nonstop court/motions/screamers. I wish my mental problems on no one. Run, don’t walk, away from small firm litigation hell.

She is making the right call.

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wallypancake (Oct 15, 2018 - 2:14 pm)

What difference does it make, what would these degrees do for you? You can practice bottom-feeder family law even if you don't have a combined JD/MSW.

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mazatec (Oct 16, 2018 - 1:43 pm)

The name and network of an Ivy.

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jd4hire (Oct 15, 2018 - 2:17 pm)

There was a good thread a while back where someone went into detail into the difficulties obtaining an LICSW certification with hours interning, etc. Didn't speak to difficulty completing MSW program, but would be decent reading as it spoke to licensure.

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mazatec (Oct 15, 2018 - 3:16 pm)

Was that onehell's post?

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onehell (Oct 15, 2018 - 4:03 pm)

Yeah it was me. In short, the classroom piece is as easy as most undergrad lib arts classes. So no, there's no curve. Heck even if there was it wouldn't matter. You're out in the nonlaw world now; no one looks at transcripts.

It's the fieldwork that's challenging. During the degree you'll get about a year, and you still can't get licensed without about another 2 years of post-degree work experience which you're on your own to get.

Few agencies are eager to provide such training, and the few that do will pay trainees near minimum wage. The upside is that if you do make it through all those years and actually manage to get an independent license, you're in short supply and high demand.

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dingbat (Oct 15, 2018 - 2:25 pm)

it depends on the program.

I'm pretty sure a J.D. from Cooley is less rigorous than a J.D. from Yale (having attended neither), but no matter where you got the degree, the Bar is the same.

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snot3 (Oct 15, 2018 - 3:16 pm)

Cooley is more rigorous than Yale. Cooley fails out 1/3 of the class each year. Yale, it's impossible to fail. Getting into Yale is the rigorous part. Finishing at Yale, not so much.

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mazatec (Oct 15, 2018 - 3:45 pm)

"Cooley fails out 1/3 of the class each year. "

Yikes, why hasn't the ABA cracked down on this sh*t?

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flharfh (Oct 15, 2018 - 4:38 pm)

Because the ABA is dominated by two interests: biglaw and law schools. The former doesn't care about Cooley exploiting ignorant kids, and the latter benefits from it. Law schools in particular have a huge amount of influence over the part of the ABA that regulates them. Great example of regulatory capture.

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williamdrayton (Oct 16, 2018 - 11:19 am)

to really drive the point home, the law school administrators active in the ABA legal education sections come almost exclusively from commodes. don't hold your breath waiting to see Heather Gerken (YLS) or Martha Minow (HLS) strolling into one of those meetings.

the people from the commodes have the most interest in keeping the federal spigot running so they can run the scam on lemmings.

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dupednontraditional (Oct 16, 2018 - 12:34 pm)

Exactly right. See Jay Conison, for example.

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onehell (Oct 17, 2018 - 2:28 pm)

In a sense, they do. The reason they fail out a third of the class is because their bar passage rates would be too low for accreditation if they didn't.

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booyeah (Oct 16, 2018 - 9:20 am)

I heard today on the radio that unemployment is at a 49 year low. Seems like now is the time to get a job, not waste more time and money in school and risk graduating into a downturn.

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shuiz (Oct 17, 2018 - 4:19 am)

Absolutely right.

Past graduates would have given anything to graduate into this kind of job market.

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billcarson (Oct 17, 2018 - 7:14 am)

Hiring is down in legal profession overall.

The most prevalent law practices are pegged at regulatory and legislative measures, not macroeconomic.

If the DOW were to hit 40,000 the day State A passed insurer-backed auto liability policy minimums that gutted recovery, State A’s plaintiffs bar is in for very dark days.

The opposite would be true if DJIA plummeted 30% of YTD and insurers were required to pay out more under no fault for example.

Financing, transactional, and construction litigation are good examples of economy driven practices. If you dedicate to that practice and the economy tanks the number of deals to negotiate or dispute evaporates.

BK and foreclosures see boomtown when the economy is crap. Once ITE ended the big 2 foreclosures mills in MN here shed 67 (!!) lawyers combined. The big 2 bk firms shed 32 combined.

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nycatt (Oct 17, 2018 - 8:16 am)

I am in commercial real estate litigation (with some complicated resi litigation like rent stabilization issues) and it is always strong, although the types of cases you see changes depending on the economy. If the economy is bad, its mostly tenant and developer bankruptcies, developer disputes, land lord tenant cases where the commercial tenant can't make rent. If the economy is good, you still get that stuff, but at lower proportions, and there are a lot of cases where landlords try to get a tenant with a good rent rate out on a technicality to re-rent at a higher price or try to clear a building to develop it.

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billcarson (Oct 17, 2018 - 8:19 am)

Once you are senior associate or partner, yes. But in boomtimes the juniors handle that work. I am a junior attorney so that is my background. You are gone faster than a package from Chernobyl when partners are handling the low dollar matters on their own.

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