Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

To tell or not to tell?

I have a friend. Not the sharpest but very nice. Poste bigsal12/25/18
Only possible way...ask if he's considering(accepted at?) ot toooldtocare12/25/18
Last night at an Xmas party young person with interested in triplesix12/25/18
For me I feel bad cause the dude and his wife are classic mi bigsal12/25/18
Say something. You only live once and can only control what e36m312/26/18
Why not? What's the risk? That he is upset with you for t superttthero12/26/18
This response. Just say you randomly found this very inform jd4hire12/26/18
Just have him contact admissions and have them set him up wi pisces21312/26/18
OP, not clear about your issue. There is enough information wallypancake12/26/18
Yes definitely say something. Ease into it and dont just say mtbislife12/26/18
Did my bit and got the following: "there is risk in any f bigsal12/26/18
You have to think about it as Darwinism in action. We are p wearyattorney12/26/18
What stops some of these law school grads from having 8 kids bigsal12/27/18
300k as a cop? Was he the Chief of Police? That seems high b debtslave1501/02/19
Next you are gonna hear how biglaw ain't worth it and that f triplesix01/02/19
I knew I should have become a Garbageman. debtslave1501/02/19
The 300K cop has become the urban legend of jdu. toooldtocare01/02/19
1/1000 cops prolly make that wage. Jdu poster thinks that af triplesix01/02/19
Not 300k but many in large cities and wealthy burbs hit 100k mtbislife01/02/19
Well, 100k is a lot different from 300k and regarding large toooldtocare01/02/19
Did my best but they're impermeable to the data and thus ano bigsal12/27/18
I wouldn't write him off completely. It ain't like the scum triplesix12/27/18
Maybe he'll like being a lawyer. Why assume he won't? fettywap12/27/18
Let a grown person live or die by their decision. Tell him t isthisit12/27/18
I agree, except that this is JDU where everyone in the legal wallypancake12/27/18
Models and bottles ahead for this dude, no doubt triplesix12/27/18
"this is JDU where everyone in the legal field is supposed t wutwutwut12/27/18
Quit trolling, we haven't had fresh blood here in years. Eve triplesix12/27/18
INITIAL Salary without debtload AND without LONGTERM prospec wearyattorney12/27/18
Most jobs nowadays don't have long term prospects. triplesix12/27/18
“Essential” services for large municipalities and wealth wearyattorney12/27/18
Prepping for ite2? triplesix12/27/18
Not trolling, 666. These threads tend to bring out a lot of wutwutwut12/27/18
bigsal tried, and even predicted the result. And this is wh toooldtocare12/27/18
Some kids do listen, like 2/10, and that makes it worth it f wearyattorney12/27/18
I still try, but I don't think I've been successful more tha wutwutwut12/27/18
Firstly, don't go to your friend saying "you need to avoid l patenttrollnj12/28/18
I took the here's what the data says approach. To which I bigsal12/28/18
I'm glad your buddy is an adult and making his own decisions wallypancake12/28/18
Nice straw man you've conjured up there, but there's a signi wutwutwut12/28/18
Nobody was trying to make anyone's decisions for them, rathe toooldtocare12/28/18
I don't think you meant your reply in response to mine? wutwutwut12/28/18
Sorry wut3; hit wrong reply button. toooldtocare12/28/18
We're cool! wutwutwut12/29/18
On the contrary. This guy wants to go to law school and rece wallypancake12/31/18
“Its not my problem” is boomer tier selfishness. He didn mtbislife12/31/18
Therefore... wallypancake12/31/18
...you ought to look up the definition of "dictate". Guy is toooldtocare12/31/18
I direct anyone who asks about law school to lawschooltransp onehell12/28/18
Don't forget to donate; a little bit here and there can help wutwutwut12/28/18
That was my approach. But smh at the cluelessness bigsal12/28/18

bigsal (Dec 25, 2018 - 9:55 am)

I have a friend. Not the sharpest but very nice.

Posted on Facebook he got into a not great law school in the MSP area.

I want to direct him here.

But alas I feel that no matter what one says he'll just wind up going anyways.

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toooldtocare (Dec 25, 2018 - 10:56 am)

Only possible way...ask if he's considering(accepted at?) other law schools; strongly recommend that he go and compare the 509s for each school, as well as the employment outcomes(both on ABA website). It's not much, but it's something.
And unless he's asked for your advice, don't bother speaking with him directly about how lousy a school it is. He most likely won't listen, and you may well lose a friend.

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triplesix (Dec 25, 2018 - 12:23 pm)

Last night at an Xmas party young person with interested in liberal arts shared this sentiment with me. I said that's a weak major. I was made out to be the bad guy bc muhhh college education. I knew better, but was too many shiners in to hold it in.

My point is that losers lose and do you really care to lose social capital over it?

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bigsal (Dec 25, 2018 - 11:24 pm)

For me I feel bad cause the dude and his wife are classic minorities that law schools prey on.

So feel bad cause it is a bad financial decision and second feel bad that a law school will scam another minority.

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e36m3 (Dec 26, 2018 - 12:14 am)

Say something. You only live once and can only control what you can control. Share your experience and let the chips fall.

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superttthero (Dec 26, 2018 - 7:48 am)

Why not?

What's the risk? That he is upset with you for trying to help? If anger for that is long lived then he sounds like a douche anyway.

In my experience people have never listened but never reacted negatively to me trying to warn them. What's it hurt to try to steer him straight, 10 minutes?

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jd4hire (Dec 26, 2018 - 9:13 am)

This response. Just say you randomly found this very informative, dark website that discusses the joys and annoyances of being a lawyer. Say you saw a thread on law school etc. Now the question is whether he'll see your thread debating posting.

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pisces213 (Dec 26, 2018 - 8:44 am)

Just have him contact admissions and have them set him up with coffee with alumni. Tell him to ask what the alumni’s classmates are doing etc. to figure out what the prospects are.

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wallypancake (Dec 26, 2018 - 9:59 am)

OP, not clear about your issue. There is enough information out there re the realities of law and law schools. If someone makes an adult decision to go to law school then that is their prerogative. Do you protest every person who smokes outside? They're doing something foolish but they are also adults making a bad decision. In your mind, going to law school is a terrible decision. Why does another's adult decision get you bent out of shape?

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mtbislife (Dec 26, 2018 - 10:31 am)

Yes definitely say something. Ease into it and dont just say its a scam right away. Direct him to stats and to people that have had bad to mediocre outcomes. You probably wont change his mind but at least you’ll know you tried.

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bigsal (Dec 26, 2018 - 10:50 pm)

Did my bit and got the following:

"there is risk in any field. this one happens to be one i am passionate about. I know you think you are helping by shedding light on the stats but please stop trying to ruin this. i know the risks and I still really want to do this."

Sigh

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wearyattorney (Dec 26, 2018 - 11:08 pm)

You have to think about it as Darwinism in action. We are paying a tax to law schools to destroy people that shouldn’t be having children, etc. Thats the only way I can make sense of it at this point.

Before his divorce, my brother-in-law had 2 million in a Vanguard account, made 300k as a cop in the NE, and was on his way to 9k a month net after taxes in pension. He’s in his mid-forties. He has 4 kids. It’s good for the gene pool that someone with common sense breeds and someone like your friend is going to take it hard in the rear.

Even after his divorce is finalized, my brother in law is still going to come out on top in relation to your friend. And that’s the way it should be.

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bigsal (Dec 27, 2018 - 8:21 am)

What stops some of these law school grads from having 8 kids they never care about?

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debtslave15 (Jan 2, 2019 - 10:45 am)

300k as a cop? Was he the Chief of Police? That seems high by any standard.

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triplesix (Jan 2, 2019 - 10:52 am)

Next you are gonna hear how biglaw ain't worth it and that fire and sanitation wage slaves is killing it with 250k income. Jdu

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debtslave15 (Jan 2, 2019 - 11:04 am)

I knew I should have become a Garbageman.

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toooldtocare (Jan 2, 2019 - 11:21 am)

The 300K cop has become the urban legend of jdu.

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triplesix (Jan 2, 2019 - 11:47 am)

1/1000 cops prolly make that wage. Jdu poster thinks that after striking out at oci, which has higher odds. He some how would beat the odds to be a baller cop.

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mtbislife (Jan 2, 2019 - 1:02 pm)

Not 300k but many in large cities and wealthy burbs hit 100k by their mid 30s.

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toooldtocare (Jan 2, 2019 - 3:56 pm)

Well, 100k is a lot different from 300k and regarding large cities/suburbs-there is definitely a geographic character to cop salaries:

https://www.cheatsheet.com/culture/states-pay-police-officers-highest-lowest-salaries.html/

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bigsal (Dec 27, 2018 - 8:20 am)

Did my best but they're impermeable to the data and thus another 1L will be.

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triplesix (Dec 27, 2018 - 11:50 am)

I wouldn't write him off completely. It ain't like the scum has 100% fail rate.

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fettywap (Dec 27, 2018 - 1:26 pm)

Maybe he'll like being a lawyer. Why assume he won't?

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isthisit (Dec 27, 2018 - 2:45 pm)

Let a grown person live or die by their decision. Tell him the facts and let him decide.

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wallypancake (Dec 27, 2018 - 3:18 pm)

I agree, except that this is JDU where everyone in the legal field is supposed to be paid 30k a year and work 80 hours a week and be totally miserable all the time. When someone is enthusiastic about the law, JDU posters feel the need to totally destroy that feeling. How dare he have excitement about a career in law? How dare he start at a low and work his way up into a lucrative and exciting career? He should be miserable. He should want to work at McDonald's flipping burgers, not be excited about the law. That is in the DNA of JDU posters.

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triplesix (Dec 27, 2018 - 3:39 pm)

Models and bottles ahead for this dude, no doubt

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wutwutwut (Dec 27, 2018 - 3:32 pm)

"this is JDU where everyone in the legal field is supposed to be paid 30k a year and work 80 hours a week and be totally miserable all the time"


Sounds like you've been missing (edit: as in "not seeing") the annual salary threads.

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triplesix (Dec 27, 2018 - 3:41 pm)

Quit trolling, we haven't had fresh blood here in years. Everyone who flames out of the profession doesn't post here anymore. This is the same issue as with school salary reports, selection bias.

Also, salary without debt load is nearly useless if one to do a proper const benefit analysis.

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wearyattorney (Dec 27, 2018 - 5:34 pm)

INITIAL Salary without debtload AND without LONGTERM prospects is meaningless.

I’ve seen what happens to many a big law firm lawyer after five years or so, it ain’t pretty in many instances.

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triplesix (Dec 27, 2018 - 7:01 pm)

Most jobs nowadays don't have long term prospects.

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wearyattorney (Dec 27, 2018 - 8:01 pm)

“Essential” services for large municipalities and wealthy suburbs.

Thread locked.

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triplesix (Dec 27, 2018 - 9:07 pm)

Prepping for ite2?

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wutwutwut (Dec 27, 2018 - 9:29 pm)

Not trolling, 666. These threads tend to bring out a lot of the older posters, even if just once per year.

http://www.jdunderground.com/law/thread.php?threadId=137906

https://www.jdunderground.com/law/thread.php?threadId=164801


The complaint that debtload is not asked/answered is fair enough. Maybe ask vohod to put that in as a line item in the next survey.

OTOH, there have been plenty of threads also asking debtload. The overall totals other than a few outliers seem to be fairly similar. The way people deal with them are quite dissimilar. We have posters reporting having paid off 400K in 8 years or less, and other posters who purposefully file taxes MFS in order to avoid their high-earning wife's pay being considered such that they can pay the IBR minimums based only on the debtor's low salary.


Don't get me wrong here. Bigsal's friend is 95+% certain to be heading for a heap of crap with his life, given the description in BS's OP.

But from the threads linked, it looks like both some of the flameouts are still reporting, still stuck in their LS scam created holes, and others are reporting having climbed up out of a hole. A nearly insurmountable hole, in many cases.

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toooldtocare (Dec 27, 2018 - 6:39 pm)

bigsal tried, and even predicted the result. And this is what happens 90% of the time or so, which is why I quit trying. When someone tells me they've been accepted at Bullwinkle Moose U School of Law, I just nod and smile and wish them well. It's a tough lesson to learn-for me-but even if someone is on the precipice of making a truly disastrous life decision, how would it be possible to convince them to channel their "passion" elsewhere. It's a shame, but it's pointless to try.
I had a kids' parents tell me how proud they were he had been accepted at Appalachian School of Law; I thought they were kidding, as I had never heard of the school. Ultimately, the joke was not on me-but they didn't want to hear it years ago, and neither did their kid. Now junior, a graduate two years out, is unemployed. But ALS has his $$$, and that's all that counts.

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wearyattorney (Dec 27, 2018 - 8:02 pm)

Some kids do listen, like 2/10, and that makes it worth it for me.

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wutwutwut (Dec 27, 2018 - 9:38 pm)

I still try, but I don't think I've been successful more than one time. For the most part people I try to counsel on LS don't want to talk to me anymore after they hear what I'm peddling (and no, I'm not hardcore about how it's horrible; just a general discussion, showing them outcomes from their chosen school(s) from LST etc.).

None of these are close friends or family members, more like friends-of-friends or the nephew of a distant aunt or others in the fringes of my social circle who say "Oh, you're thinking of law school? You should talk to wutwut, he's a successful lawyer", etc.

They don't listen. But I'm still willing to try.

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patenttrollnj (Dec 28, 2018 - 6:23 am)

Firstly, don't go to your friend saying "you need to avoid law" .... that will never work!

Best approach is to tell him something like this: "I'm not telling you to go or not to go, but you need to know a few things"

Be aware that whatever you do, there is still a 99% failure rate. Your friend is still likely to go, but at least you did everything possible to inform him.

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bigsal (Dec 28, 2018 - 8:35 am)

I took the here's what the data says approach. To which I was told that the 9 month jd required long term gigs did not count federal or state clerkship. I'm pretty sure they definitely count those.

Then I was told well the firms will hire later like after a year. I said the longer you go without real jd work, the harder it gets. And even now with a JD/MD it would be hard for me to find legal work since I've been out of it so long.

And I was also told that this does not include post JD research gigs for a year. I of course replied they most certainly do to juke the stats.

And after pointing out their misapprehensions in the numbers I got the above.

Like I said this guy should not go to law school. Not quite a friend more like his wife is a friend.

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wallypancake (Dec 28, 2018 - 9:08 am)

I'm glad your buddy is an adult and making his own decisions instead of having you making decisions for him.

If I would have let other people dictate how my professional life should be, I would still be in doc review or chasing ambulances and fighting for immigration justice at the law firm of Svetlana Q Ankovina. It's interesting how people on JDU let others dictate to them how their life should go and now try to dictate the same to others.

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wutwutwut (Dec 28, 2018 - 9:19 am)

Nice straw man you've conjured up there, but there's a significant difference between trying to show someone data (and finding out they're willfully blind to it, e.g. this guy hunkers down on the false assumption that clerk jobs are not already counted as LT FT JD req'd jobs) and "dictating how his professional life should be".

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toooldtocare (Dec 28, 2018 - 11:25 am)

Nobody was trying to make anyone's decisions for them, rather bigsal was simply trying to see if the guy had done his due diligence. He clearly had not, but was not going to be dissuaded by any stupid facts; he had a "passion" for a profession he had never practiced so was going to law school, damn the torpedoes full speed ahead.
Not sure you are on jdu, as it's clear you believe everyone, all the time, ought to keep their opinions to themselves. Since that's the case, why are you on jdu, offering opinions, and trying to dictate to other people?

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wutwutwut (Dec 28, 2018 - 3:18 pm)

I don't think you meant your reply in response to mine?

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toooldtocare (Dec 28, 2018 - 6:47 pm)

Sorry wut3; hit wrong reply button.

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wutwutwut (Dec 29, 2018 - 1:10 am)

We're cool!

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wallypancake (Dec 31, 2018 - 8:54 am)

On the contrary. This guy wants to go to law school and received an acceptance letter. He didn't ask for anyone else's opinion and then someone approaches him to educate him about his "mistake." Unsolicited advice in this context is dictating to him. Bigsal has not obligation to make sure another adult does his "due diligence." Bigsal should be concerned with his "passions," not someone else's passions. My coworker smokes and she has a kid. Perhaps you want to come down here and speak to her about the dangers of smoking. Maybe you can see if she has done her due diligence into the dangers of smoking.

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mtbislife (Dec 31, 2018 - 9:18 am)

“Its not my problem” is boomer tier selfishness. He didnt ask for anyone’s opinion because like so many others, he still believes law school to be a pathway to something that its not.

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wallypancake (Dec 31, 2018 - 10:16 am)

Therefore...

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toooldtocare (Dec 31, 2018 - 1:07 pm)

...you ought to look up the definition of "dictate". Guy isn't enrolled yet, bigsal considers him a friend, offers friendly advice, predictably gets rebuffed. This happens all the time, on a variety of topics, important to trivial, between friends. How is this dictating anything? Bigsal can't make him do anything, and it's clear he's not going to follow the advice given.

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onehell (Dec 28, 2018 - 2:19 pm)

I direct anyone who asks about law school to lawschooltransparency and maybe spend a little time showing them how to use it to drill down into the reports and such. The numbers speak for themselves and I tell them to draw their own conclusions.

More often than not they still go, but a couple of times I have actually had people drop their LS plan after reviewing those brutal numbers. Those LST people are doing God's work.

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wutwutwut (Dec 28, 2018 - 3:18 pm)

Don't forget to donate; a little bit here and there can help!

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bigsal (Dec 28, 2018 - 4:11 pm)

That was my approach. But smh at the cluelessness

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