Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

0Ls Considering Law School.

I know many of you have friends and family that tell you law wearyattorney03/07/19
It's not that easy to get into investment banking. You woul trijocker03/07/19
100 percent and not subject to debate, if you get into bigla wearyattorney03/07/19
i'm not sure whose sock you are but your act is getting a bi williamdrayton03/07/19
I never said I-banking was “easy.” It’s as hard as ac wearyattorney03/07/19
Do you think you could pass business calculus? I know I coul trijocker03/07/19
I don’t think you are reading what I’m writing properly. wearyattorney03/07/19
Literally nothing you said is true. You do not need a sp debtslave1503/08/19
If you do not have the commitment to obtain the pre-requisit wearyattorney03/08/19
elite undergrad schools do have OCI with the major investmen williamdrayton03/08/19
If you can make a career in biglaw (not any kind of law, I m wearyattorney03/08/19
Agreed. Unless you will be working for your mom or dad’s s mtbislife03/07/19
There really is a lot out there. Im in tech sales for one an confused1l9303/07/19
It flat out doesn’t make sense anymore under any circumsta wearyattorney03/07/19
anybody who cites an article by Harrison Barnes as evidence williamdrayton03/08/19
Your HB singned a four year deal for $94 million back in '16 toooldtocare03/08/19
I think a lot of his articles are little more than "work har wutwutwut03/09/19
Investing banking is no longer a great career choice because parlance03/10/19
Agreed, but let’s go with lemming mentality here “I’m wearyattorney03/10/19
Don't the two careers require a different skill set? isthisit03/10/19
At the apex, raw ability and sociopathic focus is what count wearyattorney03/10/19

wearyattorney (Mar 7, 2019 - 1:07 am)

I know many of you have friends and family that tell you lawyers lead a very nice life. I know that the information on what is known as the “law school scam” may appear to conflict with what you encounter in the culture. This is an article from a leading US recruiter. Please read it and please know there are many easier and pleasant ways to earn a living than practicing law and even if money and soul sucking hours are your goal, there are other industries, ie investment banking, where the pay off is much larger.

https://www.bcgsearch.com/article/900047443/How-to-Not-Fail-Die-or-Go-Crazy-Practicing-Law/

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trijocker (Mar 7, 2019 - 2:43 pm)

It's not that easy to get into investment banking.
You would need a Bachelor's in Business, plus an MBA.
Even the BA in Business requires Finance and Business Calculus typically, they you have to take the GMAT to get into an MBA program. The GMAT is half math so that seems to be a bar for most people.
It is just easier for a liberal arts major: history or english or political science to just apply to law school, since there is no math on the LSAT, although the logical reasoning seems to stump people.

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wearyattorney (Mar 7, 2019 - 3:26 pm)

100 percent and not subject to debate, if you get into biglaw and can do it for more than 5 years straight, then you would have been successful as an I-banker. Both involve inhumane work conditions. zero sum principles, and sociopathic employers. One pays obscenely well and the other pays a pittance outside of the South (when you factor in the work conditions and cost of living).

If you don’t have the commitment to obtain all the necessary credentials to become an I-Banker, you will fail in biglaw and by extension as an attorney unless you come from a wealthy family, or-maybe- big maybe- live in a region of the country that favors private sector employment over public sector employment.

Read the article I posted to see the commitment required to succeed at law firm. And those environments are the only ones where you can make enough money to survive on the coasts as a lawyer without a trust fund.

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williamdrayton (Mar 7, 2019 - 4:31 pm)

i'm not sure whose sock you are but your act is getting a bit tiresome. for months you extolled the virtues of how easy it was to get municipal employment, yet you never provided any evidence - you just made assertions.

now over the past few weeks, you keep extolling the virtues of how easy it is to become an I-Banker. you ignore the fact that the bulge bracket banks tend to hire only from a very small number of schools, both undergrad and MBA. and if you get an MBA outside of the Top 7-8 schools, forget it.

its absolute nonsense to say that someone without the credentials to become an I-banker will fail in biglaw. I happen to know plenty of people with long careers in biglaw who suck at math/finance and would have bombed the GMAT, much less lasted a week in B-school. as trijocker stated, you need serious quantitative skills - the vast majority of lawyers simply don't.

biglaw and I-banking are apples/oranges yet you continue to create a false equivalency with no basis in fact. now if you want to equate biglaw and management consulting, then we can have a productive conversation.

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wearyattorney (Mar 7, 2019 - 7:51 pm)

I never said I-banking was “easy.” It’s as hard as acquiring and sustaining biglaw, with the proviso that it pays 10 times more. There are some people that are totally committed to the idea that they can work “hard” and become rich, without understanding exactly what that means in this globalized economy where labor has zero value. I’m saying if you are one of those people and the article didn’t scare you straight, then I-banking is an alternative to biglaw because of the money.

Now... yes, absolutely, a person that can acquire biglaw and maintain biglaw for five or more years, can absolutely become an I-Banker. (Both are difficult routes).

Municipal employment is the sane approach (in big blue cities) for 99 percent of the population right now, but that’s not reflected in the culture. People see a starting salary and are enamored by it and compare it to a starting salary in municipal employment, when the comparison is absolutely inappropriate. You can’t covnice someone like that that law is a suicidal option. However, you can point out there are suicidal options that at least have a bigger pot of good at then.

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trijocker (Mar 7, 2019 - 9:04 pm)

Do you think you could pass business calculus? I know I couldn't.
You can't just drop into investment banking like a housewife picking up a second career as a realtor. As Drayton pointed out, you need to graduate from a top business school with an MBA.
That requires an undergraduate degree in Business and several years of advanced level math and finance. Sorry, but I don't think the typical JD could pass those classes and get into a top level MBA program such as Stanford or Harvard, that is where you need to go to do investment banking. I found fellow law students had enough problems with tax classes, and several who decided to redo their careers with an MBA post JD, bombed the GMAT. You might as well suggest we all go to medical school, that is about as likely as becoming a VC or doing investment banking.

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wearyattorney (Mar 7, 2019 - 10:33 pm)

I don’t think you are reading what I’m writing properly.

The typical JD cannot become an investment banker. A JD that gets biglaw and stays in biglaw for more than 5 years can become an investment banker. Most of those people go to top schools and/or graduate at the top of the class from lower tier schools. Those people can pass business calculus.

Most people think they are going to get biglaw, but they won’t. But even if they do, the better play was I-banking. So if you are that committed to playing the zero sum game, trying the MBA route is better. You also won’t be over qualified for every single job on the face of the planet if you lose.

The typical JD would be better off doing teaching, police work, tradeswork, or any other essential service for a democratically controlled coastal city and/or doing so in Chicago.

Most people that are typical JDs don’t think they are typical JDs when they apply to law school: they think they will be top of the class and get biglaw. I’m pointing out that even if that’s the case, give a go at I-banking. If you fail, you have more options. If you don’t fail, you’ll make more money. If you don’t have the commitment to do well in business calculus you will not have the commitment required to succeed at biglaw. See the above article.

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debtslave15 (Mar 8, 2019 - 3:33 am)

Literally nothing you said is true.

You do not need a specific undergraduate degree nor an MBA to become an i-banker. Most are recruited during OCI from target schools. Others network/apply directly to job postings. Undergrad GPA matters and majoring in something like Accounting helps but, again, is not required. I hope you don't practice law by making sh*t up and talking out of your a**.

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wearyattorney (Mar 8, 2019 - 4:03 am)

If you do not have the commitment to obtain the pre-requisites, degree and experience to pursue a career I-Banking, you will not have what it takes to survive biglaw in a meaningful way. You might work there for 2 years and get churned and burned, but you aren’t making a career out of it.

To suggest that someone that has what it takes to succeed in biglaw for an extended period of time in Biglaw does not have what it takes to become an I-Banker is the type of misunderstanding of the brutality of this profession that got people in trouble to begin with.

I suggest you read the above article for a flavor of the situation.

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williamdrayton (Mar 8, 2019 - 2:35 pm)

elite undergrad schools do have OCI with the major investment banks - but those are for 2-3 year entry level analyst positions. -the expectation is that to become an I-banker, the analyst needs to get his MBA,preferably at Wharton, Tuck, Stern, Kellogg, Fuqua or some other peer school.

LOL at "network and apply directly to job postings"

I-banks are not quite at the level of law in terms of strictly-enforced narrow career tracks, but they are damn close

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wearyattorney (Mar 8, 2019 - 4:13 pm)

If you can make a career in biglaw (not any kind of law, I mean biglaw for those that lack reading comprehension abilities), you can make a career in I-Banking.

Most people think they will make biglaw and they are very mistaken. But if you are going to roll the dice, might as well make it count. That’s the thrust of what I am saying.

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mtbislife (Mar 7, 2019 - 10:15 am)

Agreed. Unless you will be working for your mom or dad’s successful firm and completely understand what you are getting yourself into, just don’t go.

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confused1l93 (Mar 7, 2019 - 4:33 pm)

There really is a lot out there. Im in tech sales for one and first year reps make way more than first year lawyers. Without the grueling work and stress.

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wearyattorney (Mar 7, 2019 - 4:41 pm)

It flat out doesn’t make sense anymore under any circumstances.

Biglaw or no biglaw.

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williamdrayton (Mar 8, 2019 - 2:29 pm)

anybody who cites an article by Harrison Barnes as evidence of a proposition has immediately surrendered all credibility. Barnes is a notorious scamologist who charges money to lemmings under the pretense that he is a bigshot recruiter with super connections. for your money you get a listing of law jobs that could easily be culled by a few google searches.

I put out a call to anybody on this board: raise your hand if you or anyone you know, has landed a job through BCG Search. I suppose I'll be pleasantly surprised if I get a response.

I'd rather take career advice from this Harrison Barnes: http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/6578/harrison-barnes

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toooldtocare (Mar 8, 2019 - 4:19 pm)

Your HB singned a four year deal for $94 million back in '16; so yeah, I'd take career advice from him. The other HB, not so much; the cited article comes off as pretty histrionic.

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wutwutwut (Mar 9, 2019 - 8:59 am)

I think a lot of his articles are little more than "work harder" propaganda on behalf of biglaw, trying to get more hours out of each associate no matter how stressed or depressed they may be.

Like a football coach having a trainer shoot up a lineman's broken hand with lidocaine and sending him back in to play.

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parlance (Mar 10, 2019 - 1:52 pm)

Investing banking is no longer a great career choice because it's no longer a growing profession. In that regard, it's not much different from the law. Even in New York, securities jobs have seen shockingly anemic growth over the last decade.

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wearyattorney (Mar 10, 2019 - 4:56 pm)

Agreed, but let’s go with lemming mentality here “I’m going to beat the odds no matter what and no one is going to tell me different!”

Supposing you beat the odds, where are you going to be better off, investment banking or law?

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isthisit (Mar 10, 2019 - 5:21 pm)

Don't the two careers require a different skill set?

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wearyattorney (Mar 10, 2019 - 5:56 pm)

At the apex, raw ability and sociopathic focus is what counts. Same for both. The rest can be learned.

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