Remembering TCPaul, 2016-2019

"Salary: "This appointment is Uncompensated."

https://www.justice.gov/legal-caree rs/job/special-assistant- hankhill03/15/19
yeah this is a known thing, and you'd be surprised how many bingojackson03/15/19
Yup. And that's because there's more people than you would t onehell03/15/19
"Uncompensated Special Assistant United States Attorneys Gen wutwutwut03/15/19
yeah, I've known people to do years-long unpaid internships dingbat03/15/19
Lmao. I’d never want to be an AUSA but does this position irishlaw03/15/19
idk if it opens the door that wide, but it certainly can't h onehell03/15/19
Yeah that makes since. I guess my impression is coming from irishlaw03/15/19
For major markets that is true, for low population areas, AU thirdtierlaw03/15/19
If you have family money, this is the gig for you. isthisit03/15/19
It's a way to get into a high paying law firm. fettywap03/15/19
Doubtful. catwoman33303/16/19
This is almost the only industry that has unpaid positions. officermike03/15/19
Sounds perfect for Lori Laughlin's daughter when she graduat demwave03/15/19
Well, I suppose there's real snowflake stuff. Like people wh onehell03/15/19
There are lots of unpaid positions for recent grads in journ shithead03/16/19
Unpaid positions on Capitol Hill are quite common as well. somefed03/17/19
I used to live in a fancy condo building a few blocks from t dieter03/19/19
I used to live in a fancy condo building a few blocks from t dieter03/19/19
If you were desperate enough I guess you could bartend and U hankhill03/16/19
Why would you do this? A life like this can make the most ba guyingorillasuit03/17/19
"You would think that this would be above the US Department onehell03/18/19
What is sad about this is the kind of people that can afford demwave03/16/19
I don't think that's true. Many modern employers, both insid onehell03/18/19
"Many modern employers, both inside and outside law have pre triplesix03/19/19
Again, nepotism is of course still rampant, it's just that t onehell03/19/19
if this wasn't a hellhole like Iowa I would do this as a sab whiteguyinchina03/17/19
Im amazed at how many of you are saying that you would take mtbislife03/19/19
Willing partners, I guess. jeffm03/19/19
"Most socialist countries would not even pull this type of s catwoman33303/19/19
No they do not. They also do not charge the cost of a house mtbislife03/19/19
Well, the citizens of communist countries do have that joke onehell03/21/19
This could potentially be a violation of the FLSA. In Glatt blawprof03/19/19
I see your point, but if a person wants to volunteer for wha jeffm03/19/19
Only a legal one haha triplesix03/20/19
https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compli ance/whdfs71.htm It is onehell03/20/19
blawprof - I believe FSLA exempts certain professionals, att wutwutwut03/20/19
Lolwat?!?! Is this a troll? Or you just worded it careles triplesix03/20/19
Haha, do you mean because I lysdexia-d the acronym? Or d wutwutwut03/20/19
Didn't even notice any of that haha I make those mistakes triplesix03/20/19
That is correct. However flsa exempts non profits and govern ipesq03/21/19
carelessly worded but fundamentally true - salaried professi williamdrayton03/20/19
This “opening” is mainly used for people with fellowship retard03/21/19

hankhill (Mar 15, 2019 - 12:42 pm)

https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/job/special-assistant-united-states-attorney-uncompensated-7.

Just in case anyone here wants to work for free.

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bingojackson (Mar 15, 2019 - 3:00 pm)

yeah this is a known thing, and you'd be surprised how many people go for it. pretty disgusting.

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onehell (Mar 15, 2019 - 6:44 pm)

Yup. And that's because there's more people than you would think who can afford to go unpaid for a year.

Last I read, approximately one-third of all graduating law students graduate with no debt whatsoever. You know they ain't giving full scholarships to a third of the class, and even kids who do have full scholarships usually have to take on at least some debt for rent. So what that tells me is that there's a not-insignificant number of rich kids at law schools all the way up and down the rankings.

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wutwutwut (Mar 15, 2019 - 3:49 pm)

"Uncompensated Special Assistant United States Attorneys General Executives (SAUSAGEs) will be assigned to the Civil and Criminal Divisions in the Des Moines Office, Davenport Office, or Council Bluffs Office. A one-year employment commitment is required.

This is a one-year appointment without compensation. Employee benefits for this position will be limited. Note: Employees of the Department of Justice, including uncompensated Special Assistant United States Attorneys, may not engage in the compensated practice of law outside the office."



Hmm. Must work for free for a year AND can't take side clients. I guess if you've got family money it might be worth it. What do they do if you work for 3 months and say screw the 1-year commitment?


Edit: yes, I added a bit to the quote.

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dingbat (Mar 15, 2019 - 4:18 pm)

yeah, I've known people to do years-long unpaid internships at regulators in the hopes that when a paid position opens up they'd be first in the door.

screw that

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irishlaw (Mar 15, 2019 - 4:39 pm)

Lmao. I’d never want to be an AUSA but does this position actually open that possibility up? I was always under the assumption that AUSA required some sort of A3 clerkship and biglaw/ADA.

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onehell (Mar 15, 2019 - 6:40 pm)

idk if it opens the door that wide, but it certainly can't hurt and is yet another example of the kinds of leg-ups people with sufficient privilege to take unpaid internships can get.

As to what it requires to get a real AUSA job, I've talked to serving AUSAs and been told anecdotally that it's heavily dependent on who the appointed US Attorney for that district happens to be at any given time. Some of them prefer the biglaw/clerkship types, while others prefer people who cut their teeth as state and local prosecutors.

Plus, some districts are more prestigious than others. You're not getting SDNY without t-14/biglaw/clerkship type credentials, for the most part. But in the Midwest or whatever? Could be that a few years as a local prosecutor will generate some interest, once you've been handling felonies for awhile, again depending on who is currently sitting as the presidentially-appointed US Attorney for that district and what that individual's preferences are, which of course will generally be backgrounds similar to their own.

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irishlaw (Mar 15, 2019 - 7:36 pm)

Yeah that makes since. I guess my impression is coming from living in NY and meeting a few AUSA that went Biglaw —> AUSA —> Partner

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thirdtierlaw (Mar 15, 2019 - 6:44 pm)

For major markets that is true, for low population areas, AUSA can come from all different backgrounds, though most have experience prosecuting.

Edit: onehell said it much better than me and beat me by a few minutes.

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isthisit (Mar 15, 2019 - 4:43 pm)

If you have family money, this is the gig for you.

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fettywap (Mar 15, 2019 - 5:12 pm)

It's a way to get into a high paying law firm.

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catwoman333 (Mar 16, 2019 - 12:05 am)

Doubtful.

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officermike (Mar 15, 2019 - 5:32 pm)

This is almost the only industry that has unpaid positions. Ask a janitor if he would clean for free.

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demwave (Mar 15, 2019 - 7:23 pm)

Sounds perfect for Lori Laughlin's daughter when she graduates from Cooley in 2028!

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onehell (Mar 15, 2019 - 7:34 pm)

Well, I suppose there's real snowflake stuff. Like people who want to be actors, musicians, people who want to work at Vogue or on movie sets or be sports agents. People like that, I think, do very often get asked (or affirmatively offer) to work for free. The legendary coffee-fetching internships are often of questionable legality in a private for-profit business of course, but it happens all the time.

But overall, you're right. Law is the only supposedly responsible, practical field where you get out of school and still get asked to work for free. And it happens all the time, throughout your career. Heck, even if you do have a job the bar is going to be constantly guilt-tripping you about pro bono hours because that's the only thing they can think of to try and get people to hate lawyers less.

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shithead (Mar 16, 2019 - 8:01 am)

There are lots of unpaid positions for recent grads in journalism too.

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somefed (Mar 17, 2019 - 9:50 am)

Unpaid positions on Capitol Hill are quite common as well. I knew an attorney who worked for a whole year unpaid on the hill.

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dieter (Mar 19, 2019 - 11:05 am)

I used to live in a fancy condo building a few blocks from the Capitol. It was full of unpaid and barely-paid Capitol Hill staffers, paying (or rather, their parents paying) nearly $2000 a head to live there with their peers. I wanted to Destroy them all.

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dieter (Mar 19, 2019 - 11:05 am)

I used to live in a fancy condo building a few blocks from the Capitol. It was full of unpaid and barely-paid Capitol Hill staffers, paying (or rather, their parents paying) nearly $2000 a head to live there with their peers. I wanted to Destroy them all.

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hankhill (Mar 16, 2019 - 10:13 am)

If you were desperate enough I guess you could bartend and Uber/lift drive like crazy on the weekends and evenings. Then maybe secure some time of arrangement with an elderly person that in exchange for living in the basement for free you will watch over them, take care of any home repairs, shovel the walk/mow the law, etc. Then just eat only ramen and at soup kitchens. Try to buy a couple suits at Goodwill. I’m just now realizing the insanity of what I’m writing.

You would think that this would be above the US Department of Justice.

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guyingorillasuit (Mar 17, 2019 - 1:07 am)

Why would you do this? A life like this can make the most balanced and happy individual downright suicidal. Even if you were a rich kid - the type these jobs are created for - you would never be respected by your co-workers and superiors. Everyone would know that you bought your way into a job they had to work for.

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onehell (Mar 18, 2019 - 1:01 pm)

"You would think that this would be above the US Department of Justice."

It is above them. idk who applies for these unpaid gigs, but I'm sure it's still more applicants than slots. They likely ask in the interview how you intend to survive and probably weed out most of those who are going to have to hustle. Having a "benefactor," typically parents or spouse or trust fund, is probably a de facto requirement; they can't explicitly prohibit side-hustles that aren't related to law but I'm sure they frown on them.

After all, someone who is broke is someone who can potentially be bribed, and someone who is working 40+ hours for you for free and then Ubering around all night may do a crappy job as a volunteer prosecutor. As I understand it, you are a fully deputized and certified AUSA in every way except that you aren't getting paid; kinda like reserve cops who are still fully certified peace officers. With or without pay, it's a significant responsibility and they don't want people with divided attention and/or loyalties.

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demwave (Mar 16, 2019 - 10:29 am)

What is sad about this is the kind of people that can afford to work for free are also the same ones whose connections or parents can get them a paying job somewhere within their network. These kinds of positions are then left behind for people with no network, no social capital etc etc probably the ones who most need to get paid so they can pay their debts.

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onehell (Mar 18, 2019 - 1:27 pm)

I don't think that's true. Many modern employers, both inside and outside law have pretty strong anti-nepotism policies that even a highly placed person can't bend explicitly, even for his own kid, much less someone else's.

But if you do an unpaid internship first, it might give you just the excuse you need to say that the person you're related to or friends with just so happens to also be the most qualified. Plus, you can pull strings more blatantly and directly to get someone an unpaid gig because even if someone does try to blow some whistle on it, so what? They weren't getting paid anyway.

I think that unpaid internships are very popular with the children of privilege, precisely because the subsequent hiring for a paid position is based on experience in the unpaid job. That's experience that poor people cannot get. The unpaid internship is a vital device for making a caste system appear to be a meritocracy. The poor kid had to wait tables while the rich kid worked in the actual industry he's trying to enter. Easy to see how the rich kid will, it just so happens, be more qualified than the poor one even if both went to the same schools (itself a biased game), got same GPAs, etc.

It's sorta like the college admission bribery scandal vs. the perfectly legal "second look" for large donors. Or like standardized tests that people who pay private tutors have a perfectly legal leg-up on. You can't make it explicit, and you can't cheat. But like a casino, you don't need to cheat if you design the rules so as to give you an edge. That's our so-called meritocracy in a nutshell: The game itself isn't rigged and the players rarely cheat in the literal sense, but the process by which one comes to be allowed to play at all is.

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triplesix (Mar 19, 2019 - 10:40 am)

"Many modern employers, both inside and outside law have pretty strong anti-nepotism policies that even a highly placed person can't bend explicitly, even for his own kid, much less someone else's."

You must be blind or shilling. Do you even live in the US?

We also have money laundering and tax evasion laws...

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onehell (Mar 19, 2019 - 12:18 pm)

Again, nepotism is of course still rampant, it's just that they have to pretend it isn't, and internships (followed by real hiring based on those internships) is one of many ways our caste system masquerades as a meritocracy.

Repeating myself here too, but this is also like the college bribery scandal. The bribery is fine and happens all the time, but these people were simply too blatant and explicit about it (and bribed individuals instead of the university itself). You can be a big donor year after year and everyone knows a second look is expected when your kid applies; you can't make it explicit but everyone knows the donations would stop with the denial letter.

It's all done with winks and nods, but by no means does it mean it isn't there. You just can't be as blatant about it as you could back in the day, both because the institutions want to pretend it's merit and because the people benefitting from the special rules want to delude themselves into thinking they earned it. That way, when they grow up and have big important jobs, they can pretend they are the Atlas that would shrug and take their amazing unique talents elsewhere if the government doesn't stop taxing them.

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whiteguyinchina (Mar 17, 2019 - 4:58 am)

if this wasn't a hellhole like Iowa I would do this as a sabbatical

sounds fun

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mtbislife (Mar 19, 2019 - 10:31 am)

Im amazed at how many of you are saying that you would take this or that its a good idea, you are the reason the higher education scam rolls on.

I am ashamed of doing unpaid internships in undergrad that didnt really lead anywhere but imagine being in your late 20’s, presumably with two expensive degrees and working for free. Most socialist countries would not even pull this type of stunt.

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jeffm (Mar 19, 2019 - 10:33 am)

Willing partners, I guess.

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catwoman333 (Mar 19, 2019 - 8:59 pm)

"Most socialist countries would not even pull this type of stunt."

I'm willing to bet that most socialist countries do not have a zillion un/underemployed lawyers graduating with 6 figure SL debt, or a ton of unregulated LSs churning out JDs who will NEVER be able to find a job in their field in an oversaturated market.

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mtbislife (Mar 19, 2019 - 10:58 pm)

No they do not. They also do not charge the cost of a house to get an education and restrict admissions when theres too many graduates in a given field.

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onehell (Mar 21, 2019 - 6:54 pm)

Well, the citizens of communist countries do have that joke "they pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work."

Come to think of it, that sounds a lot like a lot of internships, lol. "Just fetch coffee and answer the phone. But we'll pretend to have given you meaningful experience, and you will pretend that you learned so much!"

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blawprof (Mar 19, 2019 - 10:54 am)

This could potentially be a violation of the FLSA. In Glatt v. Fox Searchlight Pictures Inc., the Second Circuit analyzed whether unpaid interns were entitled to back pay under the Federal Labor Standards Act (FLSA). I can see doing an unpaid internship for class credit, but working for one year as a licensed attorney raises questions under the FLSA. I worked as an unpaid law clerk for a judge the summer before my third year in law school and graduated a semester early.

Regardless of the potential FLSA violation, this is just ethically wrong.

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jeffm (Mar 19, 2019 - 11:14 am)

I see your point, but if a person wants to volunteer for whatever reason, there is no ethical violation just because there is a willing recipient.

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triplesix (Mar 20, 2019 - 3:00 pm)

Only a legal one haha

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onehell (Mar 20, 2019 - 12:50 pm)

https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm

It is possible to get an FLSA exemption for an internship, if it's primarily to the student's benefit. Though no one factor is dispositive, it has become common for employers hiring unpaid interns to require that the intern be an enrolled college student and be able to convince their school to give them course credit for the internship. Of course, convincing a school to give you a credit or two for an internship isn't really very difficult, so a lot of coffee-fetching internships go unpoliced using this technique, plus the implied threat of blacklisting for any "intern" who questions whether they're really getting any educational benefit from fetching coffee for people.

And as others have mentioned, attorneys are categorically exempt if the job is the practice of law. And in addition to that, if the organization is a nonprofit or government agency then it is allowed to have volunteers regardless and the rule changes totally. With nonprofits, as long as the volunteer doesn't displace paid staff or require paid staff to count some of their hours as "volunteering" then they're OK to not pay people regardless of whether the volunteering has any educational benefit.

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wutwutwut (Mar 20, 2019 - 8:17 am)

blawprof - I believe FSLA exempts certain professionals, attorneys among them, from wage requirements.

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triplesix (Mar 20, 2019 - 10:54 am)

Lolwat?!?!

Is this a troll? Or you just worded it carelessly?

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wutwutwut (Mar 20, 2019 - 4:37 pm)

Haha, do you mean because I lysdexia-d the acronym?

Or do you mean I should have written "excepts"?

Or are you poking fun at the notion of attorneys being "professional"?

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triplesix (Mar 20, 2019 - 5:14 pm)

Didn't even notice any of that haha

I make those mistakes in each and every poast myself.

Content wise tho

"Exempts from wage requirements"

While Tru in practice, I don't think the law exempts professionals from min wage laws haha

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ipesq (Mar 21, 2019 - 7:31 pm)

That is correct. However flsa exempts non profits and government work, which is how they are able to offer this for no pay.

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williamdrayton (Mar 20, 2019 - 12:18 pm)

carelessly worded but fundamentally true - salaried professionals such as attorneys are generally exempt from FLSA requirements. a few years back some doc reviewers were arguing that they didn't meet the statutory tests for exemption and therefore should have been eligible for overtime compensation.

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retard (Mar 21, 2019 - 9:04 am)

This “opening” is mainly used for people with fellowships or borrowed from different agencies.

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