Remembering TCPaul, 2016-2019

Probably the best exit option(s) for lawyers. (If money is the most important factor)

1. Legal recruiting- Many agencies are pretty thirsty for pe confused1l9303/27/19
both are sales positions. A born salesman will thrive and m dingbat03/27/19
Yeah, sales is sales. It really doesn't matter what you're s onehell03/27/19
These guys can make anywhere from 80k-400k Yes yes, and dingbat03/27/19
Lovely fantasy.... If that were true, you wouldn't see so catwoman33303/28/19
Catwoman, most attorneys lack the real-world skills it takes guyingorillasuit03/29/19
Yeah, like family connections and guidance before, during, a mtbislife04/02/19
lol...that’s great rubberduck03/28/19
1. There is NO SUCH THING as being a "natural born salesman. confused1l9303/28/19
2 and 3 are fair points, but I do quibble with #1. While you onehell03/28/19
There are lawyers out there as sales people but they are sel demwave03/28/19
@onehell. I will only object to #1, NOT because I want to co confused1l9303/28/19
Introversion has nothing to do with social anxiety. That sta thedarkscrivener03/28/19
This. Extroverts feel energized talking to people. Introve nycatt04/11/19
onehell, One issue with sales in law is that some people superttthero03/28/19
lol totally. Its a hell of a lot harder to sell overpriced D confused1l9303/28/19
@demwave. I do not think most (young) lawyers would be bette confused1l9303/28/19
There is a real demand for legal services out there. Every s demwave03/28/19
lol.. you know what I mean. Demand meaning people/companies confused1l9303/28/19
thedarkscrivener: I'd like to challenge that assumption. Why confused1l9303/28/19
Nope. Still disagreeing. You're just an extrovert who had so thedarkscrivener03/29/19
This. Extroverts gain energy from interacting with people. I shithead04/02/19
The classic definitions for introvert/extrovert include the wutwutwut03/28/19
you can learn sales like you can learn sports - yeah, you ca dingbat03/28/19
I agree with this. I am far from a terrific salesman, so the guyingorillasuit03/29/19
This. I'm a pretty introverted guy. I had a sales job out quillan03/29/19
You should try selling cars. jeffm03/29/19
Oddly enough, this thread was very motivating. Maybe I am b lolwutjobs03/29/19
I've found introversion vs extraversion has little to do wit thirdtierlaw03/29/19
People OVER-ESTIMATE how much "natural talent" is required t confused1l9304/01/19
You don't think those skills are applicable to being a good thirdtierlaw04/01/19
in my humble opinion, being a good salesperson requires: dingbat04/01/19
Dingbat pretty much hit the nail on the head. The best sales confused1l9304/01/19
Some people have no interest in selling anything. They just jeffm04/01/19
Indeed. My angle on this is that you have to truly believe i demwave04/01/19
Plenty of annuity salespeople are evangelists dingbat04/01/19
Exactly. Most the people here would have been better off ge heythere04/11/19
Being successful in sales requires a) social capital in one' dieter04/02/19
Most sales jobs, and I repeat most sales jobs, involve selli demwave04/02/19
95% of the time it's the person selling doesn't believe in t dingbat04/11/19
Belief in the product because it works is different from cul demwave04/11/19
"The debate going on here is how to convince someone to *wan confused1l9304/02/19

confused1l93 (Mar 27, 2019 - 5:17 pm)

1. Legal recruiting- Many agencies are pretty thirsty for people with JDs. The majority of entry level recruiters don't have any legal experience what so ever. You would have a tremendous advantage over the majority of other recruiters. These guys can make anywhere from 80k-400k

2. Legal software/e-disco sales. Like any software sales positions.. you can make some serious coin. If you don't have any experience, the legal background can make up for it.

If you don't like law... leave. You have other options.

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dingbat (Mar 27, 2019 - 7:33 pm)

both are sales positions. A born salesman will thrive and make stupid money. everyone else will struggle for a meager paycheck

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onehell (Mar 27, 2019 - 8:00 pm)

Yeah, sales is sales. It really doesn't matter what you're selling or who you're selling it to, you either have that personality or you don't.

And if you are one of those rare JDs who is that sort of person, why not just hang a shingle? A true-born salesman will soon be bringing in enough clients to hire associates to do the actual work.

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dingbat (Mar 27, 2019 - 8:37 pm)

These guys can make anywhere from 80k-400k

Yes yes, and attorneys cam make anywhere from 190k-4m

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catwoman333 (Mar 28, 2019 - 9:28 pm)

Lovely fantasy....

If that were true, you wouldn't see so many thousands of un/underemployed, experienced attorneys desperately clamoring every year to join the "glamorous and lucrative" world of document review and federal paralegal "AA" (decision writer) jobs.

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guyingorillasuit (Mar 29, 2019 - 7:48 am)

Catwoman, most attorneys lack the real-world skills it takes to be successful. We are a studious and nerdy bunch. Those who are not manage to attain success.

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mtbislife (Apr 2, 2019 - 4:49 pm)

Yeah, like family connections and guidance before, during, and after law school and a desire to not do anything with your free time besides work or scavenge for clients.

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rubberduck (Mar 28, 2019 - 12:27 am)

lol...that’s great

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confused1l93 (Mar 28, 2019 - 11:29 am)

1. There is NO SUCH THING as being a "natural born salesman." Its a skill that you learn, develop, and refine over time.

2. The chances of making decent (150+) money in law are much slimmer than making decent money in sales/recruiting. Most 2nd and 3rd years hit that (on the low end). Not the case with lawyers.. Very few that do not have their own practices make that much. Lack of demand and market saturation make it very tough.

3. It is WAY HARDER selling legal services than it is selling software or human capital. Furthermore, solos aren't JUST salespeople... especially in the beginning. You already know this.

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onehell (Mar 28, 2019 - 1:30 pm)

2 and 3 are fair points, but I do quibble with #1. While you will certainly improve with time and practice, there's a baseline level of a certain quality that is pretty fundamental to personality and not really subject to alteration, and that is extroversion. People in sales have got to be gregarious. It would be very, very difficult to exceed in sales as an introvert, which most JDs are.

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demwave (Mar 28, 2019 - 1:38 pm)

There are lawyers out there as sales people but they are selling products that cater to the legal community. In essence selling to their preexisting network and sales extended network. This is putting your social capital to work for you.
For a lawyer to go into selling condos, time shares, vehicles or copier leases for example is unproductive. You will be competing with salespeople who have been in the business for awhile and your degree carries no baggage for you.

All that leads to the conclusion that most lawyers that do well in sales have a lot of social capital and would probably be ok financially just staying in law. I think the difference is in time worked and quality of life. Salespeople might work off hours but they dont work a lot of hours so that might be better.

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confused1l93 (Mar 28, 2019 - 2:03 pm)

@onehell. I will only object to #1, NOT because I want to convince you... but ONLY because it may convince others on the board. Its a topic I am incredibly passionate about.

Introversion/extroversion are NOT PERSONALITY TYPES. Introversion is the result of SOCIAL ANXIETY. The only real proven way to get over this kind of anxiety is EXPOSURE THERAPY (repeatedly putting yourself in situations that cause the anxiety in the first place). "Natural extroverts" are people who received this exposure early on...

JDs are "introverts" because they spent years staring at books/studying instead of talking to people.

I had above average or even extreme social anxiety before entering sales. Its gone now because of repeated exposure.

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thedarkscrivener (Mar 28, 2019 - 3:39 pm)

Introversion has nothing to do with social anxiety. That statement is fundamentally wrong. I know a lot of introverts who do not have social anxiety. They simply do not enjoy being around people for extended periods of time and need to be alone to recharge.

While I do agree that an introvert can learn to "fake" it and can be a good salesman, it's not going to be an enjoyable or sustainable career path.

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nycatt (Apr 11, 2019 - 1:37 pm)

This. Extroverts feel energized talking to people. Introvert need to recharge after talking to people. For me, I am an intro, but I have no problem on a stage or mingling. I just need a little alone time afterwards and generally prefer small groups over big ones for socializing. My wifey needs to talk to people or will go crazy if she can't talk (like her maternity time) she talk to ANYBODY who will sit and listen. She is a classic extro. and a super successful executive while I am stuck being a decent lawyer. yuck

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superttthero (Mar 28, 2019 - 2:51 pm)

onehell,

One issue with sales in law is that some people have scruples, or are OVERLY scrupulous, or are the scaredycats. A semester of Prof. Responsibility and a career of seeing people be disbarred (admittedly rare, but the few that do get publicized), means that a lot of people are wary of selling legal services.

For a short time I had to sign people up for bankruptcy and I was terrible at it because I was too honest, too deferential, and in reality, did not feel that I was the best they were getting for their money--a lot of people with waaaay more experience did Ch 7s and 13s for a similar fee. I felt like a fraud and couldn't sell with that feeling.

Once you leave law, a lot of lawyers can sell because they aren't thinking about ethics and their worth in the same way. They really get into the mindset of quotas or markups with relation to their product in a way they couldn't with legal services.

tl;dr -- I feel like a shyster scumbag when I had to "sell" legal services, but selling something else takes away a lot of that hang up.

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confused1l93 (Mar 28, 2019 - 3:02 pm)

lol totally. Its a hell of a lot harder to sell overpriced DUI services than it is to sell software that actually IMPROVES a business. I wouldn't sell legal services unless I absolutely had to.

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confused1l93 (Mar 28, 2019 - 3:09 pm)

@demwave. I do not think most (young) lawyers would be better off staying in law for the sheer fact that THERE IS NOT THAT MUCH DEMAND FOR LEGAL SERVICES. Slugging it out in those market conditions... sucks.

Once you move industries and have even a little bit of success... you can "feel" the difference between being in an over saturated market and not being in one. Some differences include.

A) Being hit up by recruiters for similar paid jobs constantly.

B) Not really worrying about being laid off (You can find a job in a few weeks).

C) Working in organizations that are hiring all the time (At the previous firm I worked at... nobody had been hired in years)

D) Companies trying to keep you happy to prevent turnover (law firms don't care because over associate glut)

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demwave (Mar 28, 2019 - 3:38 pm)

There is a real demand for legal services out there. Every shlubb down alley street is getting ripped off everyday by his LL, employer, credit card company, bank, broker and on and on. The main problem is that 80% of all these people cannot afford a lawyer to help them. The state only provides lawyers for deprivation of life and liberty. The scavengers, however, are free to prey on your assets as long as it is not obvious.

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confused1l93 (Mar 28, 2019 - 4:05 pm)

lol.. you know what I mean. Demand meaning people/companies who can afford your product or service..

Lawyers always try to find some way to disagree lol.

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confused1l93 (Mar 28, 2019 - 4:18 pm)

thedarkscrivener: I'd like to challenge that assumption. Why do you think introverts need to "recharge?"

They need to recharge because being around people is DIFFICULT/UNCOMFORTABLE. Now why do you think that is? Its because being around people causes ANXIETY... If the anxiety was not there, or is minimized... there is NOTHING TO "RECHARGE FROM."

Every single person needs to recharge from anxiety inducing/uncomfortable situations...

Again, the only reason I am hammering this subject is because I've GONE THROUGH IT and HAVE SEEN OTHERS IN SALES GO THROUGH IT.

Humans like connecting with other humans, we are social animals... Anxiety (whether mild or severe) prevents you from doing it effectively.

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thedarkscrivener (Mar 29, 2019 - 9:54 am)

Nope. Still disagreeing. You're just an extrovert who had social anxiety. Introverts just don't need to be around people as much and find it tiring to interact for long stretches. It has nothing to do with anxiety. Sometimes other people are just annoying and it takes energy to pretend to be interested in them.

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shithead (Apr 2, 2019 - 3:21 pm)

This. Extroverts gain energy from interacting with people. Introverts usually find it tiring.

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wutwutwut (Mar 28, 2019 - 5:08 pm)

The classic definitions for introvert/extrovert include the notion of level of self-stimulus ability.


The classic extrovert is one who goes batty in long stretches without interacting with other people because he is relatively low in the ability to self stimulate. It's not that he's necessarily "good" at being around and interacting with other people (and he may not be), it's just that he needs to do so.


The classic introvert is capable of (not bothered by) long stretches without interacting with other people because he is relatively high in the ability to self stimulate. He may be socially awkward ("shy") or he may be a "life of the party" type of person. But he doesn't really care whether he gets the outside stimulus that the extrovert needs.


It's quite possible to have shy extroverts and gregarious introverts. Likewise, it's possible that the person who is bothered or anxious by too much outside stimulation (and needs to be alone to recharge) can be either.

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dingbat (Mar 28, 2019 - 10:16 pm)

you can learn sales like you can learn sports - yeah, you can train to play the game, but without talent you'll never be that good.

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guyingorillasuit (Mar 29, 2019 - 7:56 am)

I agree with this. I am far from a terrific salesman, so there's a cap on my earnings. Our profession tends to value ruthlessness above all, and I have a problem selling that.

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quillan (Mar 29, 2019 - 1:53 pm)

This. I'm a pretty introverted guy. I had a sales job out of college (it was a recession and the only thing I could find) and was okay at it because I knew the product and was able to develop a rapport with my highly specialized/educated customers. However, my earnings were very much capped because I just didn't like calling on people all that much, and certainly didn't like the schmoozing (ballgames, golf, dinner parties, hunting trips, etc) that the really successful sales people live for. Fast forward 20 years and the same is true for law. I'm pretty good at selling my services, at least for an introvert, but I watch the top rainmakers perform and can see they have a natural talent for it and a DRIVE to succeed (which is too often ruthless and unethical) that just can't be learned (not that I'd want to learn the unethical part).

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jeffm (Mar 29, 2019 - 2:17 pm)

You should try selling cars.

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lolwutjobs (Mar 29, 2019 - 2:25 pm)

Oddly enough, this thread was very motivating. Maybe I am being too risk adverse in selling my services

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thirdtierlaw (Mar 29, 2019 - 4:50 pm)

I've found introversion vs extraversion has little to do with sales ability. I also fundamentally disagree that those two have anything to do with social anxiety.

As dingbat said, you can learn how to be a salesman but if you don't have a natural talent, you'll never be great.

To be a good salesman you need to be able to read people, talk, adjust your pitch in the moment, and improvise, all while using the appropriate body language.

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confused1l93 (Apr 1, 2019 - 1:14 pm)

People OVER-ESTIMATE how much "natural talent" is required to sell effectively. Furthermore, people UNDER-ESTIMATE, how much is required to see serious improvements in your ability to sell. If you have never worked a full time quota carrying position, you have no idea how much you can improve if you spend all day doing it for months and years.

People often assume they "aren't cut out for it," because they don't spend enough time doing it/improving at it.

"To be a good salesman you need to be able to read people, talk, adjust your pitch in the moment, and improvise, all while using the appropriate body language."... No you don't... However, assuming this is true.. all of these things are EXTREMELY improvable (Record your phone calls and conversations, re-evaluate your talk track over time ect...).

thedarkscrivener: "Maybe your just an extrovert with social anxiety." Could be. I won't argue with that.

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thirdtierlaw (Apr 1, 2019 - 2:29 pm)

You don't think those skills are applicable to being a good salesman? If not what do you think is necessary to be a good salesman?

The greatest salespeople I've known all possess those skills. Those people range from waiters to car salesmen, to wholesalers for major banks.

I'm not saying that it's impossible for people to learn how to sell if they aren't naturally good at it. What I am saying is that a lot of it is innate for the people who are great at it.

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dingbat (Apr 1, 2019 - 4:21 pm)

in my humble opinion, being a good salesperson requires:

1) the ability (and desire) to talk to the right people*
2) be able to figure out what need they have that you can fill**
3) convince them that you will fill their need AND that they should do so right away

*sure, there are potential clients who will walk into the store, but that only goes so far. If you're at a party, can you hone in on who could potentially become a client, and then naturally start talking to them?

**What the client wants and what the client needs are two different things. They may express a want, but a good salesperson uncovers the need.

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confused1l93 (Apr 1, 2019 - 5:08 pm)

Dingbat pretty much hit the nail on the head. The best sales people are incredible at Uncovering/itching pain and framing their product or service as the solution to it. Some other important qualities include rejection and discomfort resilience.

Sales has almost nothing to do with having "the gift of gab." It just appears that way because the salespeople ya'll have encountered are comfortable with the interactions they are having (they've had them 1000s of times).

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jeffm (Apr 1, 2019 - 7:22 pm)

Some people have no interest in selling anything. They just want to be told what to do and given a paycheck for doing it. Nothing wrong with that, per se.

The debate going on here is how to convince someone to *want* to sell when they don't.

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demwave (Apr 1, 2019 - 9:52 pm)

Indeed. My angle on this is that you have to truly believe in what you are selling. Selling a product you know solves a problem is not same as selling annuities to retirees.

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dingbat (Apr 1, 2019 - 10:16 pm)

Plenty of annuity salespeople are evangelists

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heythere (Apr 11, 2019 - 2:54 pm)

Exactly. Most the people here would have been better off getting a degree in STEM or business and moving to middle management after a few years.

Liberal Arts is the scam.

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dieter (Apr 2, 2019 - 1:18 pm)

Being successful in sales requires a) social capital in one's Lane), b) extroversion, and c) an ability to shrug off rejection. I tried a sales gig for a while, soon realize I have a) and b), but not c). It also helps to believe in what you are selling. I believe in my legal services, but not so much exoteric financial products with 200-page prospectus.

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demwave (Apr 2, 2019 - 1:49 pm)

Most sales jobs, and I repeat most sales jobs, involve selling ice to eskimos. You are either 1) selling things that are 85% free or lower cost out there to people that dont know any better (i.e. mutual funds or annuities); 2) selling a new product, mostly unproven, that promises greater efficiency and lower costs for businesses; or 3) selling a very common product (real estate for example) that is differentiated as very very special THE SCHOOLS ARE FABULOUS HERE IN NJ
___________________________________________________________________________________________

So 95%-98% of the pitches you know are false before you begin!!!!!!!!!!There are lower cost alternatives than what I am pitching. This product might be great but it is as of yet unproven for your business. This RE that I am selling you is great but far far from unique!

If you dont truly believe in what you are selling it is hard to be great at sales. The problem 95% plus of the time is the product not the person selling.

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dingbat (Apr 11, 2019 - 4:21 pm)

95% of the time it's the person selling doesn't believe in the product.
Most of the best salespeople I met are evangelists for their product - they believe in the virtues of the product to a T. Telling them their product sucks is like telling a baptist that Jesus isn't real.

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demwave (Apr 11, 2019 - 5:14 pm)

Belief in the product because it works is different from cult like faith in something. You are referring to cult like belief.

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confused1l93 (Apr 2, 2019 - 5:03 pm)

"The debate going on here is how to convince someone to *want* to sell when they don't."---

Agreed. The only thing I have to say about that is that if you want to make MORE MONEY you SHOULD want to sell... Any high paying positions are revenue generating positions in one way or another (with the exception of people with extremely special skills... like surgeons).

"Most sales jobs, and I repeat most sales jobs, involve selling ice to eskimos"...

This simply isn't true... Anyone who has spent time in any time in technology sales knows this.

"If you dont truly believe in what you are selling it is hard to be great at sales."...
I am not sure about this either... Could be the case. I knew a guy that was REALLY REALLY GOOD at selling himself on what he was selling. I struggle with being able to do this.

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