Remembering TCPaul, 2016-2019

Kim Kardashian killing it in legal studies

Kim Kardashian, in a Vogue interview, said she aced her firs ibrslave04/10/19
She is running her business with far more success that every nycatt04/11/19
I picture her watching a few episodes of Law & Order and the fettywap04/10/19
lol, she's doing the apprenticeship "reading the law" thing onehell04/10/19
Imagine the fallout if she does pass lolwutjobs04/10/19
She probably will never get the approvals needed to even sit onehell04/10/19
I bet she can pass. She can pay for the best tutors and has superttthero04/10/19
If all she had to do was take a crash course and pass the ba onehell04/10/19
Going to have to disagree here, sorry The test questions ar trijocker04/10/19
You raise a good point, which I think illustrates another im onehell04/11/19
We underestimate how lazy people are, not how stupid they ar superttthero04/11/19
Yeah, it's true that there is a serious lack of motivation a onehell04/11/19
I agree with this. As a lawyer with a prole facing practice dakotalaw04/12/19
Cooley will accept you without a BA. therewillbeblood04/19/19
Why do you think Kim is "killing" it? She still has to take trijocker04/10/19
I think Kanye once said “there go another lawsuit. It cost seveb04/10/19
Neither of her parents seemed to be fluff-headed idiots and wutwutwut04/10/19
If she inherited some brains, why didn't she go to college? trijocker04/10/19
Any average IQ pleb with enough time and money for tutors ca irishlaw04/10/19
I’m in the “throw enough money at it and she can pass” shuiz04/10/19
Why does she need to pass bar? She has such big brand just 2ski04/10/19
Non lawyers can’t have ownership stake in a lol firm. irishlaw04/11/19
I don't follow her, but didn't she essentially turn a leaked thirdtierlaw04/10/19
Exactly. fuckyouracists04/11/19
Yes proles... the lady that does no work, is a millionaire, wearyattorney04/10/19
She's not "stupid because she didn't go to college," but nei onehell04/16/19
Her dad was only an attorney for a few years. I believe he h fettywap04/16/19
There are plenty of people born on third that try and play g wearyattorney04/16/19
There's a half-assed way to be a doctor too. You could take onehell04/19/19
I had a client who flunked out of medical school. He still g fettywap04/19/19
She can start up her own law firm and hire Harvard and/or Th wearyattorney04/20/19
I don't think I said you couldn't hire others to do the real onehell04/22/19
she can get the work credit requirement. she can pay her Cal whiteguyinchina04/11/19
The California bar exam is not easy, especially for those wh blawprof04/11/19
BBC picked it up. https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-4 7892822 heythere04/11/19
If practicing law is something that truly interests her and 6figuremistake04/12/19
She won't actually practice. As she says herself, she just w onehell04/12/19

ibrslave (Apr 10, 2019 - 2:33 pm)

Kim Kardashian, in a Vogue interview, said she aced her first law test which was “super easy” for her. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kron4.com/amp/news/bay-area/kim-kardashian-aims-to-become-lawyer-in-3-years-starts-apprenticeship-at-sf-based-firm/1914450815. Look out California bar!

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nycatt (Apr 11, 2019 - 1:28 pm)

She is running her business with far more success that everyone on this board put together. She also has time and more money than I could spend in a lifetime. My guess is she's not stupid, she only plays it on TV. I would not bet against her. Of course I wouldn't be particularly surprised if she failed either. I passed the CA bar when it was 3 days. It isn't hard if you have the time to study, which I did.

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fettywap (Apr 10, 2019 - 3:05 pm)

I picture her watching a few episodes of Law & Order and then going into court expecting her client's immediate release from prison based on "it's not fair!"

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onehell (Apr 10, 2019 - 3:38 pm)

lol, she's doing the apprenticeship "reading the law" thing because she can't go to an actual law school because she never finished undergrad. Even the modest requirement of "any BA, from anywhere, in anything, with almost any GPA" is apparently too much to ask.

What are the stats on that I wonder. I'm not from CA but in some others of the few states that do allow it, I think I remember reading that there's maybe 1 or 2 folks who get approved to sit for the bar via "reading the law," at most, in any given year, and they pretty much never pass.

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lolwutjobs (Apr 10, 2019 - 3:47 pm)

Imagine the fallout if she does pass

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onehell (Apr 10, 2019 - 4:18 pm)

She probably will never get the approvals needed to even sit for it, much less pass:

http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Admissions/Requirements/Education/Legal-Education/Law-Office-or-Judges-Chamber

She and her supervisor need to file fairly detailed progress reports every six months and then she has to pass the "baby bar" AKA first year law students exam, just like at the unaccredited law schools. I can't imagine someone with this much money and this short of an attention span actually sticking it all the way through to actually being allowed to sit for the real bar exam, much less pass it.

This idea will fizzle out when the next shiny thing to get attention comes along, and that will happen long before she's met the requirements to sit.

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superttthero (Apr 10, 2019 - 4:19 pm)

I bet she can pass. She can pay for the best tutors and has all the time she wants to study. She can take the test in perfectly simulated settings and get the best feedback.

I don't keep up with the Kardiashians so I have no clue if she has it in her to care that much about this, but with her money, she can definitely prep to the level where 85% of the population would pass the test.

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onehell (Apr 10, 2019 - 4:25 pm)

If all she had to do was take a crash course and pass the bar, yeah sure I'd at least give you even money on that bet.

But there's more to it than just showing up and taking the test, stuff like having to submit all these progress reports and pass the baby bar first. Sure, all that tutoring could get her to the point of potentially passing, but it's all the pain-in-the-ass stuff that comes beforehand, and which takes years, which will run up what I suspect is a seriously limited attention span.

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trijocker (Apr 10, 2019 - 4:25 pm)

Going to have to disagree here, sorry
The test questions are from the real CA bar exam.
As I posted below, I knew people with BAS and grad degrees who struggled passing the test after a year in law school. Going to college typically requires both reading comprehension, study and writing skills. Kim did not go to college, nor has she attended first year law school classes, but is instead studying with two lawyers. That does not necessarily translate into her passing the exam, with that background, no matter her last name.


"The exam is 100 multiple choice questions and 4 essay questions, allegedly each representing half your grade, at the same difficulty level as the real Bar Exam. The only difference is that the real Bar Exam tests 12 subjects instead of the 3 on the Baby Bar: criminal law, tort law, and contract law. The nice thing about this is that you can use actual past Bar Exam questions as prep for the Baby Bar. The bad thing about this is the pass rate for the Baby Bar is typically in the range of 20% – 25% — the odds are against you from the start."
'

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onehell (Apr 11, 2019 - 2:17 pm)

You raise a good point, which I think illustrates another important point which is that everything is relative.

We lawyers compare ourselves to doctors and note how much easier it is to become the former than the latter. Or we compare crappy law schools to good ones and note how much easier it is to get into the former than the latter.

But the truth is that "easier" does not mean "easy." The majority of people cannot even finish today's dumbed-down liberal arts BA. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, 6-year graduation rates at unselective colleges are roughly 1 in 3.

We really do underestimate, based on who we compare ourselves to and who we grew up around, just how hard it is for a really average person to write even a coherent paragraph, much less a term paper. We don't see much of truly average people, except sometimes as clients if you're in that kind of practice, so we sometimes do not have a good sense of what average truly looks like.

The point is that law school and the bar exam really are pretty hard, in the sense that even if you went to Cooley it's a lot harder than anything a truly average person will ever attempt. But of course, there's a whole lot of above-average people too, which is part of why there is such an oversupply of lawyers: Our profession is one of the easiest there is for above-average people to "enter" (in the sense of getting a license, not getting a job). But that doesn't mean it would be easy for the average person, just relatively easy for what is really a small subset of people who attend graduate school. In that sense, law school and the bar exam really are "hard." Just not hard enough that there aren't a ton of people for whom it is relatively easy and thus, we look at our own ranks and the kinds of people we compare ourselves to and conclude, based on what is really a very skewed sample, that you don't have to be that smart to be a lawyer.

And in a sense, you don't have to be that smart. The attorney population is hardly replete with geniuses. But it's almost frightening what truly average intelligence really looks like. Relative to the true average, it is quite difficult.

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superttthero (Apr 11, 2019 - 2:22 pm)

We underestimate how lazy people are, not how stupid they are. People are more cunning than we give them credit for. The issue, in my opinion, is they are just so damn lazy when it comes to academia, learning.

It's amazing what driven, dumb people can accomplish in academia.

If she's willing to put the time for a remedial level grammar/composition class, then the equivalent of a real first year undergrad Composition course, she's set up to be able to pass a law school test/LSAT with a good prep strategy.

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onehell (Apr 11, 2019 - 2:32 pm)

Yeah, it's true that there is a serious lack of motivation and "stick to it-iveness" contributing here as well. But plenty of those same people are not "lazy" in the sense that they will work hard, long hours in non-academic pursuits.

Nonetheless, the average HS grad is not remotely prepared for even the dumbed-down modern definition of "college level work" as exists at community colleges and directional state universities. I don't know whether that is due to natural distributions of some genetic "intelligence" or whether it is due more to unearned privilege and such; that's the old nature/nurture debate. But I do think that a truly average person would have a very hard time passing the barxam even if they were highly motivated.

In general, and in hindsight, I guess I should refer to average here in terms of average "preparation/readiness for a given level of education" as opposed to average intelligence. Someone who is not "ready for college" is not necessarily "stupid" or "lazy." There are all kinds of reasons they can barely string a sentence together, such as growing up in poverty.

That said, someone like Kim K. could, as you said, pay for all kinds of tutoring. But it's still going to be a lot of hard work that she doesn't even need to do with her resources. Whether it's motivation or innate intelligence, she hasn't needed much of either to achieve fame and fortune thus far.

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dakotalaw (Apr 12, 2019 - 8:56 am)

I agree with this. As a lawyer with a prole facing practice in the great state of Florida, I agree that the average joe and sally could never pass the bar exam.

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therewillbeblood (Apr 19, 2019 - 10:40 pm)

Cooley will accept you without a BA.

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trijocker (Apr 10, 2019 - 4:19 pm)

Why do you think Kim is "killing" it?
She still has to take the CA baby bar exam and you have three chances to pass in Ca.
I know people who struggled with the exam who had a year in at an unaccredited law school first.
Just because she flew into an office in SF, doesn't necessarily mean she will pass the exam.
I am not really understanding why she didn't finish college, and then attend law school.
Even if she was busy with babies, she could have done a BA online at say ASU & then went to law school.

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seveb (Apr 10, 2019 - 6:29 pm)

I think Kanye once said “there go another lawsuit. It cost so much I shoulda went to law school!!!”

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wutwutwut (Apr 10, 2019 - 6:42 pm)

Neither of her parents seemed to be fluff-headed idiots and her dad was a lawyer. Maybe she inherited some brains she's never had to utilize much previously.

But I agree with onehell's flavor-o-month thinking. She'll do this for a while and get bored and move on to some other pursuit.

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trijocker (Apr 10, 2019 - 7:48 pm)

If she inherited some brains, why didn't she go to college?
Seems like another rich person gig like get someone else to carry her child or go to school for her.
Why bother carrying the child or actually doing the work of going to college or law school? This is a four year commitment apprenticing under a lawyer if you have not graduated college.

Rob graduated from USC and Kourtney from U of Arizona I believe, at least they committed to finish college.

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irishlaw (Apr 10, 2019 - 6:59 pm)

Any average IQ pleb with enough time and money for tutors can pass the bar without going to lol school.

...to bad you have to do everything else.

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shuiz (Apr 10, 2019 - 7:20 pm)

I’m in the “throw enough money at it and she can pass” camp.

I’d think a lot of the pain-in-the-ass stuff could be outsourced so she just needs to sign something.

Unless she’s as dumb as a rock, with enough time and money, she can hire tutors to carry her across the goal line.

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2ski (Apr 10, 2019 - 8:26 pm)

Why does she need to pass bar? She has such big brand just open a shop and hire attys to do work. She is just the name to attract clients.

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irishlaw (Apr 11, 2019 - 10:49 am)

Non lawyers can’t have ownership stake in a lol firm.

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thirdtierlaw (Apr 10, 2019 - 9:27 pm)

I don't follow her, but didn't she essentially turn a leaked sex tape into a major business empire, an empire that helped launch her younger sister into being a billionaire?

I have to imagine that she is somewhat intelligent to be able to pull that off.

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fuckyouracists (Apr 11, 2019 - 6:39 am)

Exactly.

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wearyattorney (Apr 10, 2019 - 11:26 pm)

Yes proles... the lady that does no work, is a millionaire, who propelled her sister to be a billionaire, and who lives a stress free and care free existence is stupid because she did not go to college.

But you prole, with your liberal arts education, you are the smart one leading an accomplished life! Rofl.

Ah... the population of this country is totally conquered if we are calling this lady a failure because she has no degree.

On a side note, this profession is a complete and unadulterated joke. If she passes the bar, which she can if she invests the time, then she will open up a firm and have minions do the work. Like anything else.

This isn’t medicine where you actually have to know what you are doing. Plenty of desperate labor out there that will work for peanuts and do the work, while she collects the money.

I love that she’s doing the apprenticeship and not giving the law school vultures money or more advertising benefits. I hope she makes it and she further exposes what a complete and unadulterated farse this “profession” is.

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onehell (Apr 16, 2019 - 12:49 pm)

She's not "stupid because she didn't go to college," but neither does her wealth demonstrate great intelligence. Her father was a famous attorney and her former stepfather was an Olympic gold-medalist who made a bunch of cash from endorsement deals and such, meaning that she was born on third base with enough money to never have to work.

She's fundamentally just a socialite, as the children of inherited wealth have been since time immemorial. But there is a modern twist which is that in the age of social media and reality TV you can monetize that lifestyle and become an "influencer" who is essentially "famous for being famous."

There's little question that this was a wise business decision that paid off far better than education could have. It speaks to a shrewd understanding of the fact that there is money to be made off of people's envy and curiosity about the lifestyles of the rich and famous. However, it doesn't change the fact that running home from being born on third base is not the same as hitting a home run, so it doesn't tell us anything one way or the other about her academic aptitude which, in the absence of other evidence, should be assumed to be average. And if it is average, well yes as others have pointed out expensive private tutors can accomplish a lot. But in the environment of a blind-graded test like the bar exam and baby bar, you're still going to have to put in a good amount of work yourself and it is work of a nature that has never previously been asked of her.

Put yourself in those shoes. You discover this semi-obscure provision of CA law that allows you to become a lawyer by self-study, and it sounds like a cool thing to do so you embark upon it. But here is all this fabulous wealth and resources that make the whole endeavor unnecessary. How much work are you really going to put into it knowing that the entire endeavor is completely and totally optional and that you can make more money from a single Instagram post endorsing some product or whatever than most lawyers will make in a lifetime? Once the press stops paying attention to it there is a lot of incentive to just quietly drop it once it becomes apparent how much of a pain in the ass it is going to be.

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fettywap (Apr 16, 2019 - 1:43 pm)

Her dad was only an attorney for a few years. I believe he had to get readmitted to the bar to help OJ.

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wearyattorney (Apr 16, 2019 - 8:40 pm)

There are plenty of people born on third that try and play games and wind up losing it or becoming slaves to the system themselves.

She knew college was a sucker’s bet and she made more money not only from prole children, but also from other children who come from money. She also did it with little effort and hard work. She won.

She may stop or she may not stop. The fact is law isn’t a real profession. She can’t become a doctor no matter how hard she tries. She can’t become an engineer no matter how hard she tries. She can’t become a carpenter no matter how hard she tries. Those are real things. Lawyering is a joke. If she does become a lawyer, I’m glad. Hopefully it does damage to law schools.

In any event, law was formally about, and informally remains, a place for rich kids to get a finishing degree. It was never meant for proles. To the extent that it has been opened up to “everyone,” was nothing more than making sure the most despicable people of privilege, eg “law school professors,” make a living at the expense of everyone else.

I hope she becomes a lawyer and I hope she hires minions to be her serfs and televises it so people can see what a joke this really is.

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onehell (Apr 19, 2019 - 6:58 pm)

There's a half-assed way to be a doctor too. You could take the prereqs online, promise a hefty donation to some lesser-known DO or Carib school in order to get in, and then seek licensure in a state with lax postgrad requirements, such as Georgia which will allow a 1 year internship in lieu of residency, or Missouri which will allow supervised practice with no residency at all.

Sure, no hospitals will privilege you and no insurance companies will contract with you, as you wouldn't be board certified. But that's much like how no real law firm will hire a lawyer who "read the law." But if all you want is to be able to say you're a doc for credibility-related reasons, or run an all-cash practice out of a private office by yourself, there are ways to do it.

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fettywap (Apr 19, 2019 - 7:41 pm)

I had a client who flunked out of medical school. He still got an MD somewhere else and he teaches at a medical school even though he was denied a license to practice. : /

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wearyattorney (Apr 20, 2019 - 1:42 am)

She can start up her own law firm and hire Harvard and/or Third Tier grads to do the work. In medicine, as you noted, she cannot do that.

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onehell (Apr 22, 2019 - 3:20 pm)

I don't think I said you couldn't hire others to do the real work, I just said you wouldn't get hired by someone else because you wouldn't personally be able to get reimbursed by insurance, nor would you be able to get privileges to admit people to the hospital. Being able to get thru the credentialing and privileging processes of hospitals and insurance companies is something all the established practices will expect, and you can't generally accomplish that if you didn't do an ACGME-accredited residency (which is really far more important to the market than the MD in itself). But starting your own? That's a different story.

If you're the one doing the hiring, there's a way to do that. A doc who is licensed but not boarded could start a group practice. They could call themselves "medical director" which is an administrative role that does not see patients. Or they could take the cash-only patients while others in the group who are boarded contract with insurance, insure the practice at least has some folks who can get admit privileges at nearby hospitals, etc etc.

Or the whole practice could be cash ("concierge medicine"), as there's money to be made (especially in a place like Hollywood) treating rich people with diseases insurance companies don't recognize as real, such as "chronic lyme" or "multiple chemical sensitivities."

Heck, someone starting up a concierge medicine business that is "by celebrities, for celebrities" has a certain appeal to it, and those elite docs might be willing to join such a practice by virtue of the kinds of patients they could get from it, same as a Harvard educated lawyer might be willing to join KK Law just for the celeb contacts it would create. Plus more and more docs are getting more and more interested in bypassing the hassles associated with insurance anyway.

Or as an aside, you could in some states bypass the whole med school thing entirely and start a medical practice. This is because some states now allow what is known as "corporate practice of medicine" which allows general corporations to own outpatient clinics and just hire doctors to practice the actual medicine. This is actually LESS restrictive than lawyers, who have retained the doctrine that nonlawyers cannot own law firms. Some states require that group practices be physician-owned, but not being boarded does not necessarily always mean you aren't a physician. And in states that allow a corporation to own a medical practice regardless of who controls the corporation, then it's even more permissive.

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whiteguyinchina (Apr 11, 2019 - 3:05 am)

she can get the work credit requirement. she can pay her Calabasas private attorney to come to her house to get the hours.

will she pass is another issue. studying for it and passing the bar are two different things.

but I wish her the best.

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blawprof (Apr 11, 2019 - 2:13 pm)

The California bar exam is not easy, especially for those who do not graduate from ABA schools. It takes a real commitment to study for the bar exam. ATL also has an article about this. Bump this thread in 2022.

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heythere (Apr 11, 2019 - 2:47 pm)

BBC picked it up. https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-47892822

The prayers of all law professors have been answered. Hallelujah! This is "Legally Blonde" all over again. Break out the champagne!

I see courses like Social Media Law, Comparative Law of Snapchat and Instagram, and Unfriending: A Symposium on the Road Less Traveled ahead.

The teaching experience will certainly be interesting. Here is to you Lol Profs!

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6figuremistake (Apr 12, 2019 - 3:48 pm)

If practicing law is something that truly interests her and its not just a publicity stunt, she'll have the chance to live many an 0L's dream. The most common delusion among 0L's is that their 2nd tier degree is going put them into a great place to make the big bucks at graduation. The second most common delusion is that they will be able to practice in some exciting and meaningful area of law.

When most of the chumps graduate, they realize that public advocacy/environmental/sports/international law jobs aren't available (at least to non-elite grads) or the actual work isn't all that interesting and pays poorly. In most cases, with a quarter million of bucks worth of debt and no real experience, the average law grad will instead leap at the chance to go into insurance defense - and so ends the dream of being a Hollywood depicted attorney.

For a celebrity, however, none of that matters. She doesn't need the income and has plenty of money and free marketing to build her own firm doing whatever she wants. She'll lack experience, but she can just pay other attorneys to train her and probably handle most of the grunt work while she gets to appear in court, make media appearances, and console her clients. She'll have the luxury to focus on one or two clients at time in areas that interest her like indigent defense.

As others mentioned, she'll need to pass the bar, but studying for the bar is a lot more straightforward than studying for a law school exam. If you're rich and have the interest, I guess it makes for a decent hobby.

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onehell (Apr 12, 2019 - 7:15 pm)

She won't actually practice. As she says herself, she just wants to have more credibility with people she hobnobs with as she takes up a pet project of criminal justice reform. No way that involves actually appearing in court on behalf of actual clients.

That luxury to do whatever she wants is exactly right though. I suspect what she wants will take the form of heading up a charitable foundation that raises money for the cause or something like that. It might donate to people's legal fees and stuff, but her endeavor will not itself be a law firm. Of course none of that requires being a lawyer, but she just wants to be able to say she is one for credibility reasons.

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