Importance of Class Rank
snsllp (Jul 20, 2009 - 11:44 am)
So I always hear that outside of T-14ish schools, you had better be in the "top 10-15%" of your class to have decent job prospects. But does being in the top 10-15% of your class at a Tier 3 or 4 school mean much to employers? For example, would someone who is top 10% at Brooklyn Law or Cardozo be looked upon as favorably as someone who is bottom half at NYU or some other top LS? At what rank of law schools does being even in the top 10% of your class not matter? Out of the top 50? Or will you be competitive* no matter where you go as long as your class rank is high?
competitive*: meaning, able to get an interview for a decent paying job and not have your resume sent through the shredder
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So I always hear that outside of T-14ish schools, you had better be in the "top 10-15%" of your class to have decent job prospects. But does being in the top 10-15% of your class at a Tier 3 or 4 school mean much to employers? For example, would someone who is top 10% at Brooklyn Law or Cardozo be looked upon as favorably as someone who is bottom half at NYU or some other top LS? At what rank of law schools does being even in the top 10% of your class not matter? Out of the top 50? Or will you be competitive* no matter where you go as long as your class rank is high?
competitive*: meaning, able to get an interview for a decent paying job and not have your resume sent through the shredder
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kickflipninja (Jul 20, 2009 - 12:00 pm)
Well, at Northeastern University School of Law they don't rank. Like Yale.
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Well, at Northeastern University School of Law they don't rank. Like Yale.
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2tierreality (Jul 20, 2009 - 3:30 pm)
There are many variables to address when answering this, but the shortest possible answer is depends on the school and depends on what you mean by "decent prospects".
Many non T14 schools are regional schools, and there are typically "decent" regional firms who regularly recruit from these schools. These schools probably recruit at OCI. If you don't meet their class rank req's for summer, you are probably not "competitive" as a prospective associate either, unless you have some good mommy/daddy connections. some firms might give out different class ranks reqs to different schools in the region, but I don't know one way or the other. every firm is different, so no way to put a definite % cutoff for all "decent" firms. Long story short, class rank matters to almost every employer, including regional firms who recruit at non T14.
If by "decent prospects" you mean biglaw, then snoop around the nlj's web site (do a google search) and find the employment survey they did of 2006 alums, and the numbers for those working in vault 100 firms (or whatever). the numbers are right there, so do the math to calculate the %. it's fair to say that the further you go down us news rankings, the higher you have to be to get into biglaw. for some schools it's prob in the 1-5% range, and some schools have a token person go on to biglaw. some non t14 have zero.
my guess is that you will be "competitive" so long as you meet the criteria set forth in oci, for regional firms, or you rank similarly amongst those who made it as far as you want to go (per the nlj stats), for biglaw.
please tell me you are looking at all of this before you go to lawschool, right?
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There are many variables to address when answering this, but the shortest possible answer is depends on the school and depends on what you mean by "decent prospects".
Many non T14 schools are regional schools, and there are typically "decent" regional firms who regularly recruit from these schools. These schools probably recruit at OCI. If you don't meet their class rank req's for summer, you are probably not "competitive" as a prospective associate either, unless you have some good mommy/daddy connections. some firms might give out different class ranks reqs to different schools in the region, but I don't know one way or the other. every firm is different, so no way to put a definite % cutoff for all "decent" firms. Long story short, class rank matters to almost every employer, including regional firms who recruit at non T14.
If by "decent prospects" you mean biglaw, then snoop around the nlj's web site (do a google search) and find the employment survey they did of 2006 alums, and the numbers for those working in vault 100 firms (or whatever). the numbers are right there, so do the math to calculate the %. it's fair to say that the further you go down us news rankings, the higher you have to be to get into biglaw. for some schools it's prob in the 1-5% range, and some schools have a token person go on to biglaw. some non t14 have zero.
my guess is that you will be "competitive" so long as you meet the criteria set forth in oci, for regional firms, or you rank similarly amongst those who made it as far as you want to go (per the nlj stats), for biglaw.
please tell me you are looking at all of this before you go to lawschool, right?
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Free_OJ (Jul 20, 2009 - 3:38 pm)
It depends on your school. You can graduate first from a TTT and still not get a job.
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It depends on your school. You can graduate first from a TTT and still not get a job.
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sazerac (Jul 20, 2009 - 11:21 pm)
I agree with the above posters. Top 10% can open a lot of doors at a school with national or regional name recognition outside the T14 but it won't do much for you at a truly obscure school.
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I agree with the above posters. Top 10% can open a lot of doors at a school with national or regional name recognition outside the T14 but it won't do much for you at a truly obscure school.
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hob2 (Jul 20, 2009 - 11:51 pm)
The relationship between law school credentials and biglaw performance is similar to the relationship between GPA/LSAT and law school performance.
Law school prestige is like the LSAT and class rank is like GPA. There's a threshold you have to get over to get in the door, but once you're in your credentials don't matter that much. You're judged by the quality of your work, your ambition etc.
For Brooklyn and Cardozo, the academic threshold has been top 5-10% at good firms. For the most part, these kids are smart, hard workers, who don't have the sense of entitlement that a middle of the class kid from NYU might have. Anyone who has worked in NYC biglaw for any amount of time has worked with people with these sorts of stats, and probably has a favorable impression.
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The relationship between law school credentials and biglaw performance is similar to the relationship between GPA/LSAT and law school performance.
Law school prestige is like the LSAT and class rank is like GPA. There's a threshold you have to get over to get in the door, but once you're in your credentials don't matter that much. You're judged by the quality of your work, your ambition etc.
For Brooklyn and Cardozo, the academic threshold has been top 5-10% at good firms. For the most part, these kids are smart, hard workers, who don't have the sense of entitlement that a middle of the class kid from NYU might have. Anyone who has worked in NYC biglaw for any amount of time has worked with people with these sorts of stats, and probably has a favorable impression.
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legalese_retard (Jul 21, 2009 - 9:08 am)
Try checking 10 or 20 law firms you are interested in and look at the stats of the associates from a school you are wondering about. If only Summa, Magna, and Order of the Coifs are at those firms, then you know that being in the top 10% will help you at least score an interview. If only Summas are getting jobs, then you better hope for grading with THE highest grades (meaning are actually ranked 1 or 2). Also check out their soft factors. Do they have a federal clerkship, where they managing editor of LOR, where they published several times, etc.
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Try checking 10 or 20 law firms you are interested in and look at the stats of the associates from a school you are wondering about. If only Summa, Magna, and Order of the Coifs are at those firms, then you know that being in the top 10% will help you at least score an interview. If only Summas are getting jobs, then you better hope for grading with THE highest grades (meaning are actually ranked 1 or 2). Also check out their soft factors. Do they have a federal clerkship, where they managing editor of LOR, where they published several times, etc.
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totempole (Jul 21, 2009 - 9:20 am)
Wrong about the BLS student. If they made the top 5-10% and didn't transfer to a school like NYU, they are viewed as being moronic.
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Wrong about the BLS student. If they made the top 5-10% and didn't transfer to a school like NYU, they are viewed as being moronic.
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enterlaw (Jul 22, 2009 - 7:43 am)
When I went to Cardozo, BigLaw went even deeper, into about the top 20-25%. I graduated MUCH lower and still had a well-paying job upon graduation, and I wasn't the only one. HOWEVER, those jobs were usually in-house or at some niche firm.
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When I went to Cardozo, BigLaw went even deeper, into about the top 20-25%. I graduated MUCH lower and still had a well-paying job upon graduation, and I wasn't the only one. HOWEVER, those jobs were usually in-house or at some niche firm.
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Al_Bundy_4_Prez (Jul 22, 2009 - 9:23 am)
It is everything, unless you went to a TTT, in which case it will not save you.
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It is everything, unless you went to a TTT, in which case it will not save you.
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OriginalFrankDux (Jul 22, 2009 - 9:39 am)
it IS everyhing if your goal is biglaw or, the often mentioned, but seldom aquired, midlaw. On the other hand, i graduated in the bottom half of my class and it took me 5 tries at passing the cal bar exam, and i'm making 70,000.00 a year as a law clerk (my C&F is still pending). I work for two law offices...8 hour for a solo, and then 4 hours for small firm of 5 attorneys, which is down the hall from the solo. So, i bust my ass working at least 12 hours a day, but i'm single, don't have any responsibilities, and it's helping me pay down my debt.
I've never been asked my class rank. What mattered was that I have a lot of litigation experience and hit the ground running like a track star. Also, i bugged and bugged the shit out of the second lawyer till her finally said "ok, i'll give you a few hours a week." He liked my work so much that I am now working 20 hours a week for him.
So, if your not shooting for big law, class rank really doesn't matter as long as you have some marketable skills.
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it IS everyhing if your goal is biglaw or, the often mentioned, but seldom aquired, midlaw. On the other hand, i graduated in the bottom half of my class and it took me 5 tries at passing the cal bar exam, and i'm making 70,000.00 a year as a law clerk (my C&F is still pending). I work for two law offices...8 hour for a solo, and then 4 hours for small firm of 5 attorneys, which is down the hall from the solo. So, i bust my ass working at least 12 hours a day, but i'm single, don't have any responsibilities, and it's helping me pay down my debt.
I've never been asked my class rank. What mattered was that I have a lot of litigation experience and hit the ground running like a track star. Also, i bugged and bugged the shit out of the second lawyer till her finally said "ok, i'll give you a few hours a week." He liked my work so much that I am now working 20 hours a week for him.
So, if your not shooting for big law, class rank really doesn't matter as long as you have some marketable skills.
Reply
Al_Bundy_4_Prez (Jul 22, 2009 - 11:54 am)
Exactly as I said. Class rank is everything because (a) as a law student, you probably don't have significant practical legal work experience and (b) as a law student, you're not learning anything in classes how to actually practice law. Unless you're a top-of-the-class superstar, can rely on a connection for work, have rich parents or a trust fund, or have significant legal work experience, it's a safe bet you'll be mired in the same unemployment quagmire as 90%+ of newly-minted lawyers, all the while cursing your decision to attend law school as well as your decision not to leave at a point where SallieMae would only be half way up your arse.
OriginalFrankDux would probably be screwed if he/she didn't have prior work experience.
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Exactly as I said. Class rank is everything because (a) as a law student, you probably don't have significant practical legal work experience and (b) as a law student, you're not learning anything in classes how to actually practice law. Unless you're a top-of-the-class superstar, can rely on a connection for work, have rich parents or a trust fund, or have significant legal work experience, it's a safe bet you'll be mired in the same unemployment quagmire as 90%+ of newly-minted lawyers, all the while cursing your decision to attend law school as well as your decision not to leave at a point where SallieMae would only be half way up your arse.
OriginalFrankDux would probably be screwed if he/she didn't have prior work experience.
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CRASHDOWN (Jul 25, 2009 - 11:02 am)
When you first start out every recruiter asks you the following four questions:
1) What Law School did you goto?
2) What was your Final GPA?
3) What was your class Rank?
4) Who did you Summer Clerk with and were you made an offer?
After a period of time, they start asking these questions:
1) What was your last big case?
2) What size was your last firm and what did it specialize in?
3) What did you bill per hour?
4) What clients will you be bringing with you?
The people who graduated at the top of their class or from a T1 will always have that advantage. But proving yourself never stops.
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When you first start out every recruiter asks you the following four questions:
1) What Law School did you goto?
2) What was your Final GPA?
3) What was your class Rank?
4) Who did you Summer Clerk with and were you made an offer?
After a period of time, they start asking these questions:
1) What was your last big case?
2) What size was your last firm and what did it specialize in?
3) What did you bill per hour?
4) What clients will you be bringing with you?
The people who graduated at the top of their class or from a T1 will always have that advantage. But proving yourself never stops.
Reply
blsingindisguise (Jul 28, 2009 - 5:24 am)
There are certainly some employers who would rather have a top 10% BLS/Dozo student than a bottom halfer at NYU. Often the two are people who might only have been a point or two apart on the LSAT, or taken significant scholarship money to attend the lower-ranked school, and the BLS/Dozo kid has done more to prove that he can handle legal writing and research and a heavy workload, plus he's shown motivation.
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Post a message in this threadThere are certainly some employers who would rather have a top 10% BLS/Dozo student than a bottom halfer at NYU. Often the two are people who might only have been a point or two apart on the LSAT, or taken significant scholarship money to attend the lower-ranked school, and the BLS/Dozo kid has done more to prove that he can handle legal writing and research and a heavy workload, plus he's shown motivation.
Reply